rec.autos.simulators

Whats the point in competing with people who are using, in effect, a
more powerful car than what you are capable of providing even with the
"perfect" setup.

I just hope Papyrus puts an end to all these cheats once the real thing
is up and running.

shooting through ***space:

Your admission that you cheat -- oh, I'm sorry, use the grey area --
will drastically reduce the amount of people willing to race with you.

I have a question -- are you so frightened that you can't hack it
(pardon the pun) on a level playing field that you feel it necessary
to artificially enhance your advantage?  I'm not criticizing here,
just curious.  I'd be interested to see how good you are using static
setups and (gasp!) unmodified track or setup files.
--

SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS

I always thought the point of all this was to learn racecraft, car setup
and driving skills through fair competition...  not who was the best
hacker.

I can tell you for certain, that there are a number of IVGA members who
are not at all happy with the discovery of your extra chassis tuning
adjustments.  I would have to now include myself in that group as I have
raced with you all year in the IVGA ( and beat you at Talladega ) with
just the standard setup tools.

You, of course, may not care... and that would be unfortunate as I know
you are proud of your racing results -- but this is not 'real racing'
for 'big money' with a win at all cost mentality.  Many may feel that
until everyone is using the same tools, results obtained by use of
"extra tools" will be tainted.  I'm sure you don't want that footnote
next to your name.

Paul

Regards,
Gavel

Julian, after speaking with you I am convinced you are a very talented racer
and obviously a setup man par excellance. The fast times being logged by many
racers on MP are a result of your driving and setup skills and the info being
passed on to them. The only thing that bothers me is that some who have
achieved exalted status on MP aren't worthy of it. I know you have helped many
who have asked you and probably recieved little thanks. Unfortunately, it has
created an elite group who obviously using your talents for their own glory!

I also think you may be baiting people a little into thinking you are cheating
more than you really are. I know how many of the cheats are applied, you do
as well. Its my feeling that you are fast enough that you don't need to cheat.

My appologies for accusing you or any group of cheating! Its too bad though
you might not get recognized for your abilites and others not so talented will!

Regards Pete

:>
:> I am not fooling myself.. Just using my wits to get more speed.. I am
:"real"
:> racer, I actually do this for living..; )  There are setup programs are
:there
:> that do it for you!!! Just look around..
:>
:
:Are you really Rusty Wallace?  Sounds like him...  :-)
:
Actually no.. I am not  Rusty.. He's alright though; )

take care

:

Julian Data
IVGA Member #0004
Director of Information Technology
ACE Beta Tester and Driver of IVGA
Channel Operator of #ivga on IRC (Undernet)
Powered by IVGA Pro Gamer System P6-200 oc 233, 96MB EDO

: Darrel, there is cheating going on in Hawaii! And there are many forms

Pete et al,
 I guess you misunderstood my point. I'll try to restate it clearer:
There are people on Hawaii that do cheat, whether it be 2-lapping, using
a tsr program, etc.

The problem is, since there is cheating going on, many people, such as
one of the original posters and a few followups, wrongly assume that
everyone running super fast times (4-5mph faster than they are after
they have spent countless hours on their setups) must be cheating.

And, to compound this myth, they don't know the specifics of the cheating,
so they assume the worst and think the only indicator that people are
cheating is the fact that they are fast. This creates a tremendous
fallacy that fast = cheat, and/or fastest = cheat.

I am also saying that I know alot of guys turning super fast and
record speeds, and they are very good racers. I respect them, and
I'm 99.9% positive they do not cheat (I'm not at their house watching
them so I can't say 100%).

Dega I have no clue about, I don't race there (only had 10 starts total
from when I first started Hawaii), so my statements don't apply there.

I'm just trying to quench the flames of the "I can't believe how fast
these guys are going so they must be cheating" fire that will obviously
blaze bigger the longer this goes unaddressed.

Most guys turning 194-6 at MIS, 188-90 at Atl, 127-8 at Richmond,
154-5 at Rock, 186-7 at CMS, 100-1 at Marty, etc, etc. are
doing it legitimately, with the same program, files, and opportunity
as Joe Average Racer. There might be a few stragglers in there
who are cheating to achieve these type of speeds, but the vast
majority are not cheating whatsoever.

Setting up a car has seemingly endless permutations. One wrong turn
can really***you and make your speed plateau too early. You can
spend 5 hours or 500 hours on a setup and achieve the same end result.
Experience is key. I've spent hundreds of hours at MIS and Atlanta
figuring out what make setups tick. Then I talk to friends, discuss
some setup theory, and play around some more. After learning there, I
was able to apply what I've learned with some theory and crank out some
very fast setups for other tracks like Richmond, N. Wilkes, Pocono, and
Phoenix in a matter of a 5-10 hours per track.

And, I'm still learning all the time!! Speeds have not settled. One thing
I learned from racing ICR1 series', just when you think a record is
pretty much etched in stone, it will be beaten! In another month or so,
I bet you'll see legitimate 197s at MIS =8-o!

 This is the truth; unfortunately, some people still won't believe it
because they cant go that fast. Oh well, such is life.

C-ya,
 Darrel
Hawaii ID: Darrel

web: http://www.***highway.net/~darrel/nascar.htm

Amen.. Darrell!!!; ) I commend you excellent post..

take care

Julian Data
IVGA Member #0004
Director of Information Technology
ACE Beta Tester and Driver of IVGA
Channel Operator of #ivga on IRC (Undernet)
Powered by IVGA Pro Gamer System P6-200 oc 233, 96MB EDO

<SNIP>

While I basically agree with what you said, the problem is not with
individuals who have spent the time and energy to go fast.  People who
have spent hours going in circles to change a percentage point in the
right front shock, then spend another hour doing it again, deserve to
go fast, and will.

My beef with the "grey area" drivers, is when an individual uses
anything other than Nascar's garage to modify the car setup.  If your
modifying the rear cambers, tire compounds, packets, etc. you are
doing something that wasn't intended, or allowed by Papyrus.  They
have expressly forbid that kind of activity, and the individuals who
are doing it, are cheating.  The "grey area" is just a pretty word for
cheating, at least as far as I'm concerned.  It's a shame to, because
a lot of guys who would be considered the best, are considered idiots
because they just can't do it honestly, and have to do it the only way
they can, through hacking.

The worst thing about this, is depending on how you look at it, is
that it really threatens the integrity of the Hawaii system.  How many
of you guys are willing to run pick-up races or open league races when
you're constantly thinking the guy in front is cheating?  How long
will you continue to pay LD bills, or pay for the NRL when it comes
out, if anyone with any programming knowledge and an editor can make
himself king?

It's gotten to the point with me to where I only run my leagues, where
I can be fairly sure of the honesty of the drivers.  If it wasn't for
that, I probably would have been long gone off the system by now.
That's a shame, because I really love racing, and this is one heck of
a way to play "driver for a day" :).

--

Hawaii Ace League - http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Closed Beta Tester Hawaii Network  - bsimpson online
"It's Always Darkest before it goes totally Black"

Darrel, I don't disagree with most of what you have said but with speed comes
the penalty of tire wear and gas mileage! Legit racers can run the speeds
you mention and I have a few tracks that I can get the big numbers on
as well, but!!!! You don't run the same speeds on your last gallon of
22 that you did earlier in the race and then pit only to add gas and then keep
going. With no tire wear! I have seen guys post real big numbers only to
come back to the field as the tires wear down and in some cases in long
green flag racing get beat because of the abuse on tires. But I have witnessed
the first scenario on occasion as well, but many of those doing the
cheating use it selectively as required. If I can figure out these hacks
and so called grey areas, many more talented then I can also do it!
Speed doesn't equal cheating! But when your tires never wear out
and you have big speed, guess what! Cheating!

Pete

Mick in Tampa

        People are doing 4 to 5 miles an hour faster is because...  We've have
experience at each track.  I'm not saying nobody cheats.  I don't cheat
and can turn 196 Michigans and 190 Atlantas.  If there were people
cheating on Hawaii, then hawaii would be able to figure it out.  They
are not idiots.  Many other people can do these speeds.  You ever heard
of the RYR brothers.  They are on almost every top ten track records
because we know how each track is meant to be ran.  To  go faster learn
your way around.  There is a perfect groove.  If u guys want to go
faster get on the track.  Some times something that works for u doesn't
work for me. And vice versa.  Well Gotta run   SEE YA.

                                                JDH

http://www.il-icom.net/~haber/qualifying.html.

GO TO JDH'S NASCAR HOMEPAGE AND VOTE FOR DRIVER OF THE MONTH!!!

One of the most important aspects of developing speed is making the car
work more efficiently on the track.  A car that uses its available
traction very efficiently will usually be faster AND easier on the
tires.  Many times you will find yourself actually going faster by not
pushing the car as hard as you know you can.  This is also easier on the
tires.  If somebody is going quite a bit faster than you his car is
probably working much more efficiently than yours.  I have no doubt that
some people DO try to cheat, but I strongly doubt anything they can do
will help much except small improvements in qualifying speed.  If you
can reach speeds withing 1 or 2 mph on most tracks then you might want
to worry about it, if not you need to spend your time getting up to
speed.  Don't worry about the cheaters, leave that up to Papyrus.

Dana Bailes

All..

So know all you have judged me as a cheater?? First of all, where are the
rules??

Before you even left your finger on that keyboard, just hear me out, cool??

Some of you just race for the fun of it, while others take it seriously!! This
sim pretty real when it comes to MP. We now hear all the controversies over this
setup options dilema. But there has always been controversies towards the "fast"
guys on these sims!! The "other" drivers always ***ed and moaned about the
"fast" drivers, being fast. I know some of them, they worked their but off as
did I!!! You don't get to be fast overnight. It takes alot of time to do it, to
get the recognition that you want.

I know some of you don't give a hoot about running fast, so just but out of it,
since it doesn't cocern you at all!! It shouldn't bother you at all then.

A little history first..

Before there was Hawaii (MP), there was IVGA's FASTLAP program and their
assorted software. Alot of people did the program to see where they would rank
themselves in the WORLD! Some of the others wanted to be "Number 1". This
program taught me alot about setting up car for two laps. In the past two
months, I have  moved up the charts quickly. Then soon taking my spot as being
the "World's FASTEST driver for NASCAR". NONE of those  "extra" setup options
back then, TONY JOHNS!!

As I was moving up the charts, Don Wilshe, wanted me to a part of the IVGA,
because of my accomplishments in that short time. I also put my input and tested
out the software there is now. I am not a programmer at all. I just find the
bugs or glitches in the software for the IVGA.

Now listen, STOP the rumors about the IVGA software!! The IVGA software does NOT
save your setup nor save a replay from your laps you have turned!! Do you
realize how big that file would be?? 97k to be precise..plus the 128bytes setup
file!!

Back in February....

When I got burned out on Nascar, I decided to try out ICR2. I like the feel of
the car better in ICR2 than NASCAR. Then I noticed the setup options in ICR2, I
was wondering if it would work with NASCAR. So with "new" life into NASCAR, I
tried my theories with a hex editor. Now, was to find out if it worked or not on
the track. Remember, ICR2 and Nascar basically have the "same" physics engine!!
I told Don and several others about my findings. Soon there was a setup program
that had all the features I worked for.

Why the more setup options?? To get faster and more consistant. You see I was
already "burned" out on NASCAR! I was already at a point that I couldn't go any
faster. I have conquered the game is what I was thinking. With these "new" setup
options, it just might work. On to testing..and testing..

If you don't care to go fast, please don't reply or  email me, about you don't
care about going fast. If you are replying back, because you think its' cheating
go for it. But I will not reply back..This is really getting pointless..

Since I have reading ras, I have noticed how things get "twisted" in here. All I
was doing telling someone about it. Yes, I admit I do it. But you answer me
this, where are the rules?? How can they check for it??

I think Papy is way over their head for NRL, this is nothing comparing to what
is going to happen on NRL!!

Wake up people. This is really beginning to sound like "real" life motorsports!!
There are some serious people out there!! Remember that!! There is alot of
controversy to who is cheating or not!! Look at the KING, he has been caught
cheating, but people still RESPECT him!!

All the top teams find ways to have that edge. It's called competition. If you
don't like it, then either, watch who want to race with or just stay out of it!
Make sense??

I know that majority of you have never done any "actual" racing experience or
followed any racing series. Just like all sports there are controversy on
cheating. For example, the Chicago wore black shoes and socks, so the referees
would have a hard time seeing the violations!!

The "hub" incident with Jeff Gordon was completely bogus, it really wasn't about
the hub in the first place. It was hidden. He traction control on board!! I have
very reliable sources.

BTW, there are people who do cheat on MP using a TSR program. But now you can no
longer use it!

Also, for those of you that race know what I am taking about "grey areas". It's
just your interpertation of the rules on how YOU see it. If it's not there, then
it's legal. If you get caught, then you are cheater!! Comprende??

Well put Tom.

Perhaps Mr Data can write a program that will steer his car for him, leaving his hands free for other
things.<g>

Good race at C***te the other night. I was Dad.