rec.autos.simulators

:
:      Soooo Mr. Data, let me see if I understand this reasoning of yours
:now.....Say I invite you to my house to watch the race, and have a couple
:beers, and some conversation. On the kitchen table lies my wallet, with
:two crisp 20 dollar bills sticking out for all to see. You look around
:and notice that there ISNT a sign that says "please dont steal from your
:host"  So you flip open the wallet and remove the cash, and smile on your
:way back from the bathroom, because you did nothing wrong (in your mind
:at least).
:
That's an ENTIREL different scenario.. I respect people's houses!! How dare you
judge me!!! Americans are always judgemental!!

:      Do you really think that you are participating in acceptable
:behaviour here? How many times you think I'll invite you to my house if
:its gonna cost me 40 bucks every time you come over?????

More on this later...READ My next post..okay..

:      I personally dont give a rip how fast you are Mr. Data, because the
:thing that concerns me here is your attitude..."it's ok to do it, if no
:one is looking". I sure as hell wouldnt want to race with you in a league
:environment, and you obviously dont understand that the reason that alot
:of us, if not most of us, are here, is for the journey, not the
:destination.

Read the rules..wait.. WHERE ARE THE RULES???? I guess you have never competed
in your life, eh?? Who cares for you attitude..anyways? Who are you to judge me?
I really don't care if you don't want to race me or not.. Just face it.. THERE
ARE SERIOUS PEOPLE THAT RACE on the SIM. Just like in REAL LIFE!! GET a Clue!!

 What fun can it be for you, or some of the other "fast" guys
:I see around, to be 4 to 5 miles an hour faster than everybody else? I
:would think without any competition on the track, to hold your interest,
:that the racing would get quite boring, quite quickly. I realize you dont
:need my pity, but I still feel sorry for you, and your kind, who have to
:disect things until the fun is gone, and the challenge consists of
:another hollow victory on the track.

Pity?? Sheesh.. I am one of "few" fast guys willing to lend out helping hand!! I
want EVERYONE to go fast!! If you don't..I don't mind that..I respect that..

:      Ford Motor Company's QS 9000 program says that I "cant say it, if I
:cant prove it" and by golly...I guess ya got me there too, cause I have
:no idea how to work the "grey areas". I've been more interested in the
:door to door racing that typifies NASCAR, since I signed on to HAWAII
:awhile back, then in trying to get a leg up on the competition by hook or
:crook. Ooooops, I mean working the gray areas.

HELLO!!! I have opened up to everyone.. And now I am the target.. Pity, everyone
wants to race, right?? Fairness?? Hmm.. Why don't you look at the history of
MOTORSPORTS. You will SEE that the TOP teams strive to be the BEST they can be.
They are always willing to find an edge.

:      I apologise to others who've had enough of this thread, but I could
:stand it no longer. I HAD to put in my two cents worth. My feeling is  
:"if ya cant play nice than go on home". What possible satisfaction could
:anyone (with any self-worth at all), get from cheating or hacking their
:way to a victory???. I'll certainly listen to any justifications you guys
:attempt to come up with, for what you do, but you'll also have to excuse
:me if I have a good laugh at yer expense. It's kinda sad really, this is
:exactly the kind of behaviour that I'm trying to NOT instill in my
:children....I feel like I'm swimming upstream about now.

Whoopee.. That's right..BUT.."if you can't handle it..go home.."  Behaviour??
Hmm.. Okay..DAD..

:       c ya at the track,

If you stop you complaining and ***ing. you  might see me there..

Please read my next POST.. This will be my last POST for this subject.
_

WTFE...

writes:

Traction control on the front wheel?? yeah , your source is really
reliable.

Gene

shooting through ***space:

Excuse me -- this is not the issue at stake here.  The issue is NOT
the fact that you're fast for two laps -- the issue is that you and
other drivers think it's not only fair but ACCEPTABLE to go outside
the parameters of the program to be fast.  More in a bit...

You conquered the game?  Have you figured out what it takes to be that
fast for a whole race?  Have you run a 100% race with 30 other
drivers, avoided wrecks, managed your pit strategy, etc. and
consistently won?

There certainly is value in being fast in qualifying, but NASCAR
racing isn't about being fast for two laps.  You've only conquered a
small insignificant part of the simulator.  I pity you if you think
fastlaps are the end-all be-all of motorsports.

I think you would be particularly suited for drag racing, though.

It amazes me that you equate being serious with cheating.  People
respect Richard Petty because of his humility and friendliness in
front of his fans, not because he's a successful cheater.  I suspect
none of this brouhaha would have happened had you not set yourself to
be the almighty "conqueror" of the simulator.

I would be delighted to find that you are as fast as you claim under
the following conditions:

a) That we run STATIC setups
b) That we do not use hex editors or other grey areas
c) That we run at least a 50% length race

Should you destroy me under these circumstances, THEN I will respect
you for your driving ability.  There are drivers who post amazing
times under those conditions and I consider them to be truly excellent
drivers -- Rhawn Black, Brian Tate, and others come to mind.  These
guys don't have to have the crutch of a fast setup or hex editor to be
good drivers.

But don't ask me or anyone else to fall down on our knees to worship
you for conquering two laps using questionable methods.

No, none of your rationalization makes sense.  You ask us to respect
your mastery of the "grey areas" of the rules?  Talk about a
non-sequitor.

Your ego is truly amazing, Julian.  I've heard some people say you're
a nice guy and very forthcoming with your secrets, but how on earth
are we supposed to respect you when you try putting yourself up on a
pedastal like this?
--

SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS

:Excuse me -- this is not the issue at stake here.  The issue is NOT
:the fact that you're fast for two laps -- the issue is that you and
:other drivers think it's not only fair but ACCEPTABLE to go outside
:the parameters of the program to be fast.  More in a bit...

There is a reason for going fast for a short period of time in FASTLAPs. You see
you learn the value of setting up a car for qual. From there, you will learn how
to setup a race setup. I was trying to say I learn how to setup a car with this
program, then eventually do a race setup.

You have again begin twisting everything..

:You conquered the game?  Have you figured out what it takes to be that
:fast for a whole race?  Have you run a 100% race with 30 other
:drivers, avoided wrecks, managed your pit strategy, etc. and
:consistently won?

I have done numerous races at 100% length.

What is your problem??? Is it because you are the MAN to goto for carsets, yet
are not known for their driving abilities??
:
:There certainly is value in being fast in qualifying, but NASCAR
:racing isn't about being fast for two laps.  You've only conquered a
:small insignificant part of the simulator.  I pity you if you think
:fastlaps are the end-all be-all of motorsports.

Hey now! The reason why I said I conquered the game is because I felt I was fast
enough and know enough to hold my own!!

Pity, really?? You must really think I am stupid or something. Tony, you really
don't know who I am, or what I have been through "real" racing. You see, for the
past couple years I have worked on a NASCAR Sportsman team and have a NASCAR Pit
Crew's license. I also have a NHRA Driver's license to sub 9 sec in the quarter.
I have been racing since I was 16. I have well over a decade of experience
probably more than you will ever have!!

I help out other circle and drag teams, not only with suspension, but tuning
race engines, and of course builiding them!!

BTW, I also "own" a business that specializes in high performance for cars and
trucks. I do racecars, streetcars, restorations.. All the way from the ground up
to drag or circletrack cars. As you can see I do this for living..

Tony, I don't know about you, but in my area, I am usually called, "the Tuner or
the Professor." Because of my ideas and theories..

Ahh.. I am educated. I am an ASE Certified Master Technician, ASE Certified
Machinist, and Mechcanical Engineering degree..

:I think you would be particularly suited for drag racing, though.

Anything else you like to speculate??

:It amazes me that you equate being serious with cheating.  People
:respect Richard Petty because of his humility and friendliness in
:front of his fans, not because he's a successful cheater.  I suspect
:none of this brouhaha would have happened had you not set yourself to
:be the almighty "conqueror" of the simulator.
:
I was just pointing out that he cheated and got caught!! Yes, people still
respect him, yet in the turn of events here, people seem not to respect me!
Granted, I am not no WC driver, but I have known to be friendly and open with my
ideas and thoughts. Yet, I known for being the cheater now.. Because of words
being twisted around, just because I have opened up to let everyone know about
"new" findings in the sim. Where would all the utilities be without this
movement of people "hacking" into the program??

People have to have an "open" mind when they race, regardless if it is "real" or
"simulated". You in fact have a close mind about this whole ordeal.

Your goal so far in this post, is to humiliate me for saying, "I conquered this
sim." I never said that I was the best NASCAR sim driver. It's just stated in
the FASTLAP program for TWO laps, right?? Doesn't that tell you that I know what
I am doing?? I have did what I wanted to do. My first goal was to be known as
"one of the fastest" drivers out there. And I have done that. Now I have become
rated as "Number 1" in the FASTLAP program. I have met my goals. I indeedly
respect all the "other fast drivers" out there!!! If it wasn't for them, I would
have never worked so hard! They know who they are!!

Ahh..is this a challenge???

:I would be delighted to find that you are as fast as you claim under
:the following conditions:
:
:a) That we run STATIC setups

No..problem.. But I think you insecurities now will curious as to what setup I
will use.. I will use a "default" type settings..

:b) That we do not use hex editors or other grey areas

And???

:c) That we run at least a 50% length race

NO, problem.. I am already in a league that does 80-100 % length races. I love
longer races. I love strategy..

:Should you destroy me under these circumstances, THEN I will respect
:you for your driving ability.  There are drivers who post amazing
:times under those conditions and I consider them to be truly excellent
:drivers -- Rhawn Black, Brian Tate, and others come to mind.  These
:guys don't have to have the crutch of a fast setup or hex editor to be
:good drivers.

Yes, I respect them also. Hmm.. I dunno about you Tony, but you will noticed
that the "respected" guys always qual in the top three or five.. Hmm..

:But don't ask me or anyone else to fall down on our knees to worship
:you for conquering two laps using questionable methods.

Man, are you twisting things around. You know something.. I think you are taking
this personal, since I am associated with the IVGA.. That's right I said it..

:No, none of your rationalization makes sense.  You ask us to respect
:your mastery of the "grey areas" of the rules?  Talk about a
:non-sequitor.

Hmm.. I guess you have "never" competed in real motorsports, eh?? I ask you to
respect the fact that what I did is not in the rules.. As a matter of fact,
where are the rules??  I have numerous emails from some of the "Papy beta
testers" asking me.."Where are the rules????"

:Your ego is truly amazing, Julian.  I've heard some people say you're
:a nice guy and very forthcoming with your secrets, but how on earth
:are we supposed to respect you when you try putting yourself up on a
:pedastal like this?

I am a nice guy, until you step on me. I am not putting myself on a pedastel.
You may think that I am. I am not. Everything gets twisted in NGs.

EGO?? Hmm.. Well I am proud of myself for what I have done in motorsports. I
have been told from the other "fast" drivers to stay quiet.. I think I will
now..

Ciao

:shooting through ***space:
:
:>Have you ever done "any real" racing before?? The rules on Hawaii does not state
:>anything about it.. So it's perfectly legal..
:
:Your admission that you cheat -- oh, I'm sorry, use the grey area --
:will drastically reduce the amount of people willing to race with you.
:
Wake up!!! Stick to you speciality..painting cars..okay??

:I have a question -- are you so frightened that you can't hack it
:(pardon the pun) on a level playing field that you feel it necessary
:to artificially enhance your advantage?  I'm not criticizing here,
:just curious.  I'd be interested to see how good you are using static
:setups and (gasp!) unmodified track or setup files.

More on this later.. READ next post..got it??

:SimRacing Online Webmaster
:http://www.racesimcentral.net/
:Hawaii: IWCCCARS

Julian Data
IVGA Member #0004
Director of Information Technology
ACE Beta Tester and Driver of IVGA
Channel Operator of #ivga on IRC (Undernet)
Powered by IVGA Pro Gamer System P6-200 oc 233, 96MB EDO

Now before you try to rip me a new hole for having no experience, I too
have had many years of "real" motorsports experience from drag racing to
asphalt sportsman.  Although at least I can admit that that does not in
iteself make me an authority.  My 80+ laps in a "real" Winston Cup car
don't make me an authority either.

I think a large part of the problem with this whole thread is that you
don't seem to be open to other peoples interpretation of the sim.  You
chastise others for being closed-minded for not seeing your position,
yet you can't see that there might be an opposing point of view.  There
are a group of people out there, myself included, that enjoy the sim for
its competition without the hacking (nothing better than winning an IROC
race).  I, for one, have no problem with you hacking the program if you
so desire, but don't compete with me as if we were on equal footing.
You have only a shallow victory and the adulation of those who don't
know any better.

Open minded means you can see other points of view;  I do believe that
it is you that ALSO fails to see the other side.

This is the second post where you've said this.  What are the chances of
this being true?
--
___    _   ____  _____   ____   ____  _____
|  \  | | / _  \|  ___| / ___| / _  \|  __  \
|   \ | || | | || |___ | |    | | | || |__| |
| |\ \| || |_| ||___  || |    | |_| ||  _   /
| | \   ||  _  | ___| || |___ |  _  || |  \ \
|_|  \__||_| |_||_____| \____||_| |_||_|   \_\

Go fast, Turn left!       The reason to live!

I don't think he was judging you, just trying to make a point ..........

The "RULES" are the options in the software.To change thes options
therefore is cheating,you are
not abiding to the parameters of the game, rather adding your own.
You are right, everyone you have extended a "helping hand" to is
gratefull I'm sure,I am not so sure the
people you race against feel the same way.
The point is not everyone has the ability,time,knowledge to "hack" the
software. You consider this "fair".
Also when it is discovered (top teams finding an "edge") there are
usually suspensions and fines. The point is what can they do to you for
stretching the rules? Not Much. So in your mind there is no consequences
so there is no violation?

The idea that it is ok to hack a copyrighted program to gain some edge
over the competition is hard justify.
It is illegal, from what I understand, to alter computer software. Maybe
I am wrong.

Just my .02, I am not "judging" you just trying to participate in a
debate on what most consider "cheating"

Don't take it personally, I thought this was a place to exchange views
and information???

Mick in Tampa

:writes:
:
:>The "hub" incident with Jeff Gordon was completely bogus, it really
:wasn't
:>about
:>the hub in the first place. It was hidden. He traction control on board!!
:I
:>have
:>very reliable sources.
:
:Traction control on the front wheel?? yeah , your source is really
:reliable.
:
Sheesh.. I guess you don't know anything about cars.. Yes, the hub did go, but
is wasn't because it was "illegal" .. It was being used as a "scapegoat" to hide
something else. Come on think about it!! Why did it take NASCAR TWO days to say
something about it? Use your head. Don't believe what you always read and hear.
Get the news from behind the scenes. The media can't really say what is
happening.

As for traction control, I guess you don't know much about cars. You need a
wheel sensor at each wheel to which the given speed at each wheel. Now think
about it? Something like ABS

As for what the Gordon car used. There device was hidden in the bellhousing and
hooked up to one of "hot boxes". The box was dead and used the a "different"
connector. Now NASCAR mandates all cars use the same "recommended" connector. It
read the rpm off of the flywheel.. There were set parameters set in the "hot
box"

Well I will go on later...if you want?? How about via email, okay?? This isn't
the place for this..

take care

:Gene

WC teams make adjustments that are available to other teams.  If they go
outside the rules, they receive fines.  If there's one thing that Gary
Nelson has done right, it's getting rid of the "gray" area.  You're
statement that you are not a cheater is the most arrogant assertion I've
ever seen on this newsgroup!

Pat
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Pat Campbell            The Chevy Monte Carlo           6,94,88,16,4,25
Lexington, AL            NASCAR's Wide Load               War Eagle!!!          

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Pat
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Pat Campbell            The Chevy Monte Carlo           6,94,88,16,4,25
Lexington, AL            NASCAR's Wide Load               War Eagle!!!          

           Home Page: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pscampbe/pscindex.html
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Tony, I'd be interested in joining this event (like it will happen), and I
think some guys like Rich Scott, Red Lindsey, and several others would be
interested as well.

Pat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Campbell            The Chevy Monte Carlo           6,94,88,16,4,25
Lexington, AL            NASCAR's Wide Load               War Eagle!!!          

           Home Page: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pscampbe/pscindex.html
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Hi all,
  I have kind of a different take on this cheating controversy.
I have to agree that hexing a setup is probably cheating but I
think the problem here has to do with at least a couple of
different issues.
  The first is translation. I think Julians' posts seem a bit more
aggressive than they really are. His english is a bit halting (no
offense Julian). And therein I think is a lot of room for misinterp-
retation( God knows I'm good at that!) I believe that his early
posts were just informing everyone that hexing is going on. I am more
concerned about those who use it on a regular basis..that aren't
talking!..perhaps those "fast" racers who Julian referred to as saying
"be quiet".
  And that is the second. I think Julian is being regarded as the
"poster boy" for cheating. But I'm pretty sure he didn't invent
hexing of the camber, fuel etc. A lot of others , some who we respect
as great drivers, are probably doing the same thing. It's frustrating
not knowing who is doing it and Julian happens to be the focal point
of that anger.
  Anyhow it all became a bit clearer when Julian inferred that he was
not from this country.
  As for the posts declaring that we shouldn't assume someone is
cheating because they're fast:  all I can say to that is now there
is a seed of doubt. Those who go fast know; those who aren't and have
spent considerable time working on setups probably have their faith
a bit shaken. Darrell is right in saying that we shouldn't assume
speed=cheating but on the other hand what are we to think? You see
a 15 year old who just got a computer two months ago, Nascar a month
later blistering you lap after lap. It makes you wonder a lot of
things. The worst thing for me is, now what speeds do I use as a
benchmark for my own progress? Who is live or who is memor-hex?
  Finally, I think, at least from my limited contact, that Julian
is one heck of a nice guy. And he is publishing a setup guide which
I am very interested in.(I have an ancient post from Rhawn Black
to the Sportsim Forum on Cserve about him writing a setup guide. Boy,
I'd have liked to see that, but then Hawaii came along...rats!!)
So at least he is willing to help others get faster, not only in
Nascar but Indycar and GP2.
  I am not defending Julians' view of the gray area. But I do realize
that without people pushing the techno limits we wouldn't have
carsets, weigh-it programs, racelength changers, strength modifiers,
and doing a character check I think Julian is more above the board
than it might appear here.
Thanks for the space and time.
Regards,
Greg
Gavel on Hawaii

writes:

Good advice cause your blowing smoke up our ass with your rambling
bullshit stories. You own a business and race Drag cars and stock cars and
have the time to spend hours conquering a racing sim ..... where do you
get the 40 hour days??

Gene

Pat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Campbell            The Chevy Monte Carlo           6,94,88,16,4,25
Lexington, AL            NASCAR's Wide Load               War Eagle!!!          

           Home Page: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pscampbe/pscindex.html
        NASCAR Stats: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pscampbe/nascstat.html
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