rec.autos.simulators

My train analogy for FIRST Racing:

Back in 1990 a company made its first passenger train. It was the best
passenger train ever made and defined the design of trains for the future.
The engineers and designers were heralded as innovators.

A competitor surpassed it in 92 as new techniques and better tools were
available. Undaunted our heroes redefined the genre again in 93 and followed
it with their first goods train in 94. The goods train was bigger and
heavier than the passenger versions and even though many preferred passenger
trains the new technology in the new goods trains made many drivers make the
switch and whilst they waited for the new technology to be incorporated in
the passenger trains. This duly arrived a year later. Goods trains slowly
improved but the real innovation was the new passenger train of 98 which
again represented a major leap forward. Again the engineers and designers
were viewed as heroes.

Having created the greatest passenger train the company concentrated on
their goods trains. Other companies launched new passenger trains but
despite some successes the 98 passenger train was still regarded as the best
by many of the drivers. Whilst the goods trains have a large following many
drivers waited patiently for the next passenger train from the best
designers.

Years passed and it never arrived. The 98 trains were continually updated by
their owners such that it looked up to date, but it lacked the technology
being incorporated into the goods trains.

As more years passed greater modifications were made to the 98 train by the
customers to improve the technology rather than just the aesthetics.
Furthermore goods trains were being converted to passenger trains in an
effort to incorporate the new technology into passenger trains. Remarkably
the manufacturers made no updates to passenger trains, leaving the customer
base to modify the old trains and convert the goods trains as best they
could.

Fortunately for the manufacturers the continual improvements made by the
customers kept them as a household name, despite their lack of involvement
with passenger trains, such that when the company split up the key designers
were able to form a new company credible to the passenger train market.

The customers continue to modify and convert the old trains but are waiting
expectantly for the new generation passenger trains to fill the 7 year void.
At which point the old stock will finally head for the sheds.

Wake me up when its over. The sleeper car looks inviting.

LOL. The sleeper car mod - I could use that in my next epistle. Then again
maybe not :)

Nothing wrong with what you wrote but you appear to miss the point. Money
makes a company work, good PR is a nice thing to have, but it won't put
bread on the table for long if people don't keep buying new trains. Why buy
a second, new train if you can get a free second train by just modifying the
original train?

Don't forget a real train can only be changed, if you change it the original
train is gone unless you change it back. You still only have one train. Mod
a sim & you have the mod, plus the original sim is still there if you are
interested in it.

For example on my HD I have at least 5 mods for F12K2 plus the original sim
but I only paid for one CD.

Malc.

Hey Tony
Where's your anorak, thermos & note book for the train numbers :)
Stick to GPL - BTW I'm still being thrashed at Combe by my son.
Chris

I just wanted to prove how nonsensical the analogies being used were. I
think I may have gone overboard this time even by my standards :)

Though in my (admittedly rather weak) defence I may have been indoctrinated
by my youngest playing Starlight Express repeatedly...

Kaemmer and I should clearly do our talking on the track and leave the
analogies to others.

BTW, Chris - have you tried the 65 mod yet?

Cheers
Tony

All you intellectual property buffs might wanna head on over to Catwoman:
Copycat, here:

http://www.bluetights.net/copycat/

These guys are not merely ripping off somebody else's whole shtick, they're
bragging about it.  Talk abt. hacking the executable....

    I only remember that Papyrus was ENCOURAGING mod groups when the 1.201
patch was released.  THey were almost begging for modders to help stave off
EA's juggernaut.  Now I know FIRST is NOT PAPYRUS legally, but they are
close enough in my mind that it feels like FIRST is going back on Papyrus'
promise.

dave henrie

Well even I was bored when I got to read it :)

If there are new and better ones to buy they will be bought.

People don't spend money changing cars just because they are getting worn
out but because they believe the newer ones are better.

The loyalty and good PR bit just comes for free by an interest being
maintained in their products by the modders. Probably doesn't make much
difference to sales but is still a nice to have in case decent competitive
products came on the market.

Cheers
Tony

Well I guess congratulations are in order Steve, you managed to find an
analogy even worse than Tonys.

Malc.

Thanks Malc :)

Kaemmer started all the train analogy stuff you know. I just did *too* good
a job in my efforts to show it was all nonsense!

It's not an analogy, it's case law.

Going back to IndyCar Racing and the original NASCAR Racing, Papyrus worked
hard to discourage mods.  I presented Kaemmer with evidence that the (wholly
unintentional) "modability" of Microsoft's Flight Simulator actually
encouraged that sim's growth.  Eventually, Papyrus embraced the idea.  But,
like SimBin, which started out as modders and now discourage it in GTR (they
shut down a promising BMW M3 expansion car and won't even permit mention of
3rd-party tracks on their forums), Papy's legal and spiritual successor,
F1RST, has joined the ranks of the Blue Meanies.  They don't seem to have
learned anything from the mods of games like Half-Life and Battlefield,
which would prolly have ceased to exist w/o mods like Counter-Strike and
Galactic Conquest.  It's been the salvation of racing sims in an era when
console games and ring-tones for cells almost wiped PC *** off the face
of the earth.  Even Unreal Tournament is on board, promoting modding with
contests like Make Something Unreal.  Kaemmer may be Master of the Physics
Engine, but abt. what makes the *** world go around, he ain't gotta clue.

I take it all back, Steve found an analogy even worse than DK's then.

Steve, This thread was started to offer an explanation of the thought
process behind sim designers allowing people to create what is essentially a
second complete sim that can double the value of their original sim - this
has the benefit of making the sim potentially appeal to a wider audience but
the downside that the need to buy new sims may be reduced.

It should be pretty clear to most that the intellectual rights belong to the
original design team & there is a gentlemen's agreement that it's broadly
okay to mod a sim even though usually the EULA will specifically prohibit
it. If the designer chooses not to look the other way the community can't
really do anything other than accept that.

If it ended up in court the designer would win every time, so I don't really
see how case law has anything to do with this situation. If the situation
reaches the point where case law history is required the modders have
already lost, and nobody likes a poor loser. Just accept and respect FIRST's
decision & aim to influence the genres they simulate rather than getting
hung up on the modding. There are plenty of other sims to mod.

Give FIRST a chance to actually produce something that you might like
straight out of the box before complaining that you can't alter it to suit
your needs.

Malc.

I'm not objecting to what F1RST might or might not produce; I'm objecting to
their prior restraint of what others have produced.  The rights you seem so
eager to protect here are not being violated.  There is no commercial
intent.  F1RST would have to prove that TR's mod (or BR's or C'One's or
anybody's) are hurting the sales of that which they undeniably own the
rights to, namely, NASCAR Racing 2003.  But...N2003 isn't being sold (at
least not by F1RST), so they would have to prove that these mods would hurt
*future* sales of some as-yet-undefined F1RST product, which obviously
can't--or won't--be done.

I smell a rat when F1RST jumps in to not only protect their rights, but when
they also force TR to remove references to Sauber/Mercedes, Jaguar, Mazda
and Toyota.  Is F1RST the agent, assign, counsel, heir, or party to any of
these manufacturers?  No, they are, IMO, just throwing their weight around
to show they "mean business."

I know all about property rights.  I introduced a property called the Swiss
Army Watch here in the U.S.  I was contacted by the bullies, thugs, and
goons of Forschner, who distibuted the Swiss Army Knife in this country.
They told me, among other things, that I could not sell a watch with a red
dial (!) and that I could not claim that the watch was made in Switzerland
(which it was, in the hamlet of Porrentruy).  This kind of intimidation is
standard in this business.  I forced them to change their name to Swiss Army
*Brands* (their product had never been endorsed by the Swiss Army), but they
forced me out of business because I could not afford to defend my little
company against the onslaught of their mighty legal brigade.  After I quit
the field, they gobbled up my idea and profited from it to the tune of
several million dollars a year.  And still do.

If this mod dispute landed in court, F1RST would win in a walk, but not on
the merits of the case, but because Kaemmer's financial muscle (the owner of
the Red Sox) would crush the individual modders who ply their trade for the
love of the game.  Too bad Mr. Kaemmer doesn't realize that the very people
he is stomping on here are the core of his future audience...that is, if he
ever gets a product out the door that these people might actually otherwise
want.