rec.autos.simulators

Thought I'd drop in for a quick ramble (since r.a.s. is the perfect target
audience).

Our company had a karting day yesterday, pitting the esoteric, pasty-faced
researchers like me against the down-to-earth product developers and the
tanned-and-beautiful marketing types - you could feel the tension in the
air!  It seems to be a long tradition, but this was my first visit. In fact,
it was my first time in a kart.  The karts were the standard 200cc machines,
centrifugal clutch, no gears, and the track a nice 850m indoor layout with a
shiny concrete finish.  It had a nice variety of turns, including two "flat
out" sweepers, some hairpins, some mid-speed and some cool combinations.
The karts can nudge about 75-80 kph.

I was quite surprised by the feel of a proper racing kart.  "Direct" would
be an understatement for the steering response.  The left-foot braking was a
novelty, but not foreign to an old sim-racer. What I'm wondering about is
the proper way to drive one of these things on a typical short kart track.
My first lap I drove slowly just to get the feel, but the little thing gave
such great feedback that it was easy to quickly start experimenting.  The
next few laps I drove using fairly standard technique, off the gas and on
the brakes for corner entry, then back on the gas for the exit.  Clean in
and out.  That was hopeless.  The next few laps I ignored the brake pedal.
For slow corners I used the combination of cutting the throttle and pitching
the kart into a slide to cut speed.  It was quicker, but still not right.  I
finally settled on a technique of keeping my gas foot planted for the whole
lap, and making speed and car attitude changes with a feathered brake pedal.
This was by far the fastest, especially since the little 200cc motors seem
to bog unless you keep the throttle open.  Is this the way to go?  It was
also clear that, although provoking slides by coming into corners way too
hot was fun, they killed the lap times.  The old script of slow in, fast out
still seems to work for karts.  Granted, "smooth" and "slow in" have a
different meaning with the kart, as the driving style is still quite
nervous.

How does "sim-training" fit in here?  Even with my infrequent time with GPL
and GP3, somehow I've developed a good "feel" for what the car's doing, and
how to compensate.  Having never been in a kart before, I was surprised to
have set the 2nd fastest time of the day, out of 40 testosterone-charged
participants.  The top guy races every weekend.  Lots of sim-racing also has
taught me to watch up the road and find the holes past the big wrecks.  It
was also interesting that the same mental skills apply as in sim-racing -
watch the guy ahead and figure out where he's losing time, then capitalise
on it.  I had a fabulous battle with one guy for several laps, and realised
he was cautious on a combination S-into-slow corner, and over the laps I
could see how the pass was going to develop, and it did.  But, and this is a
big but, the physical stimuli coming back from even a 200cc kart are ten
times as strong as from GPL.  The feel of nailing an apex in the kart, or
getting a perfect drift through the top-speed corner, is just so much better
when you can feel it rather than just see it happen.

And "racing ethics"?  Well, perhaps I've raced with too many good
sim-racers, but I was appalled at the driving of my colleagues :-)   I'm
used to most people conceding a corner when they know they have been well
and truly beaten.  But yesterday it was "full ramming speed" from the guy
you just passed, as he tries to squeeze your back end out or punt you off
the next corner.  I didn't get too hyped about where I placed in the race,
and could see the fun of some of the bumper car techniques, but at the same
time it all somehow offended my basic sense of gentleman racers.  Several
times I would have the corner but still feather the brakes as I figured it
was better than both of us ending up spun around at the corner and having 6
guys stream past.  Every single pass I made had to be truly earned, which I
suppose is satisfying in its own way, as I knew I had done it cleanly.  Blue
flags?  Forget about them.  I was in a fierce dice for top spot in the final
race, and we were stuck behind someone a lap down who had the world's widest
kart, and who seemed to have a problem with the colour blue.  I can
sypmathise with Coulthard at Monaco.

In the end, it was all fun for a day.  Can't see myself paying good money to
do it more often, though, as I would rather be out mountain biking, and I
can get my racing kicks for free on the computer.  However, just in case we
do it again next year, what's the right way to drive one of these little
monsters?

Stephen

My own karting time is limited (not to mention long gone), but I think
you're deep into the basics...as proved by your 2nd-fastest time of the day.
Let us know about your subsequent karting adventures...if any.

--Steve Smith

On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:40:09 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson"

First of all, nice to see you're still alive and well :)

I did a lot of karting the last two years, and yes, I think my
simracing experience helped my greatly in my karting.
Before simracing (before GPL :) I knew nothing about racing
techniques. It was great to see how I could use these techniques in
practice. Not only the how-to-drive techniques, but also the racing
techniques.
Unfortunately, as you have experienced yourself, karting races often
end up in bumping and ramming races. Lately I don't kart often anymore
because I got turned off with the average karting mentality.

Btw, this weekend is the GPL LAN here in holland. The whole weekend we
have GPL races with 11 Hyperstims, but tonight we start with some
outdoor karting races. Its going to be fun to see how some of Europe's
best GPL-ers will do on the real track :)

Andre

Alias I fear sim racing offers little in preparation other than race
craft (which is very important).  There is no way you can get the
feedback to realistically simulate  a kart.

Regards,
Anthony Bulloch

I realy enjoyed reading your post, as I experienced the same last winter
when I entered an indoor Kart series. It was with the local chapter of the
Porsche Sports Car Club of North America, and this club is full of guys who
race on weekends or do hot lapping events with their Porsches. They have a
lot of on track experience. For me, it was my first on track racing
experience and GPL sure helped.

Your so right about the racing ethics and techniques.

Ethics:

Some, who would ram me in the back at the next corner after I passed them,
would later tell me that I braked too early, when I knew its because they
braked too late :) And the blue flags...oh my god...even a lap down, they
think they can relap themselves.

Techniques:

We also raced on a slippery concrete floor. At the beginning, I was wasting
a lot of time trying to stay with the pack by coming into corners way too
fast, but I quickly learned to enter slow and do my best to get the best
possible line. I found that keeping the gas on, and use the brake as a sort
of traction control, also made me faster on this slippery surface. It might
be different on asphalt.

Unfortunatally, the karts we were using had so much difference in speed. Our
position on the grid was determined by our finishing position of the
previous race, and we were making a draw to determine the karts we would be
using for the race. If we were unlucky one week and pick a bad kart, you had
no chance of a top spot on that race. But for the season as a whole, I think
it averaged out pretty good. I finished the season 3rd, very close to the
top 2 guys as it was decided on the last race :)

After reading your post, I think your hooked, and I'm sure you'll go back
very soon :)

Robert
Hull, Qubec

I was karting on Tuesday night, and I had a very dramatic experience.  The
start finish straight of the tight indoor circuit I was racing on is curved,
and is taken at speed (About 35-40 mph).  I was involved in a three kart
battle for the lead when I felt my handling was getting worse.  When I got
onto the start/finish straight, the front right wheel came loose, and fell
off, and my kart veered sharply into the tyre wall, taking another kart with
me!

The race had to be stopped to clear up the mess, but I was able to make the
restart, and finished the race 3rd out of 8 drivers.

"Ryan S" ...
I can top that. A couple of years ago I went racing indoor karts and I was
closing in on the kart in front. As we dived into the corner he spun out and
as I swerved to avoid him I ran over his rear tyre. The next thing I knew I
was upside down, sliding across the track. When all the dust settled a
marshal came running over shouting at me not to move. Apparently the
"Incredible Hulk" effect is quite common and people have been known to throw
the kart off them! The only injury was a grazed finger (I was glad I was
wearing the "gardening" gloves they supplied) and I recovered to race in the
final, where I did considerably better than I do in GPL, coming first! Great
fun, but I'll have to sort myself out a go in a proper kart - the indoor
ones are just too slow.

--

Tony Whitley
GPLRank -0.54
MonsterRank 407 and falling...
"On some laps I'd get as many as fif*** corners really right, but Moss, he
gets them all right on every lap" - Von Trips after the 1961 German Grand
Prix.

  This didn't happen to be in the twin cities area of Minnesota, did it?  This
sounds like a track a few miles from my place.
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

wrecks.  It

I'm

Copy both of those totally, though add "R/C and" before "sim" ;-)

Jonny

ELEVEN HyperStimulators!!!!  You lucky dogs!  Please post a report on the
weekend's activities here.  It should make fascinating reading.

LAN Party in Vegas, anyone?

--Steve Smith

Great post Stephen!

Concerning how to drive those karts it really depends on karts,
track surface, temperature etc. From my experience there are
different kinds of rental karts and tracks:
-- most common -- Karts don't have much acceleration, brakes
are pathetic, tires are worn and surface is slippery. That is
a sign of operator who reduces costs. Track is more or less simple.
The best thing to do is to keep throttle to the floor, turn into
the corners very early making the kart slide and hitting apex
just right. There's little need for brakes, except when something
happened on the track.
-- good operators -- karts have good acceleration, hydraulic brakes
and good tires. Tracks also tend to be more technical, difference
between good drivers and average ones often 3-4 seconds per lap.
From my experience, karts there have they own character. Though they
are more or less equal, some will be understeering, other oversteering,
ones will have better grip, others a bit more power. With understeer
and less grip I prefer to slide into the corner more often, than when
I have more grip and oversteer, though it really varies on the
configuration of the corner. In the race it is much more fun,
because you will usually start on the cold tires. I slide the kart
into the corners on few first laps controlling it with the throttle
and brakes. When tires warm up, I start to drive more precisely and
less sliding (or not at all).
I do not recommend using throttle and brakes at the same time. It
does not do any good and overheats the clutch, so you lose
acceleration in the later stages of the race.
Also if the track has several different surfaces, different surface
temperature (indoor-outdoor tracks), corners with camber,
variety of corner series, there is no one solution. You may need
to slide the kart in one corner and drive precisely in another.

About the racing and bumping:) If you race in corporate event or
with random people, what you've experienced is typical. If you
want good racing look for some championships at local track.
Surprisingly, I've found out that winter is the best time,
because many people who race during the summer in various series,
entertain themselves in indoor championships during the winter.
It makes a good competition.

Regards,
Alex.

Also, and I've raced with some of the absolutely fastest
guys around, sliding buys you almost nothing.  I've seen one
particular guy, who is about 6'4" tall and 220 lbs, beat
guys half his size by keeping the kart completely on a
rail, but on the limit.  He never slides at all.  If you feel
like you have to slide, only do it entering the turn, and
get things collected well before the apex.

I'd disagree with what someone else posted too, as far as
sim-racing transferring to karts, or any other race car
for that matter.  I use pretty much the same steering
input style in karts as in GPL, and it's fast in both.

--
Pat Dotson

Anyway, quite fun, and I learned I could at least run with the karters my
age, and it was very fun to race them. We were passing back and forth each
lap, but they were a bit too aggressive (though they rarely bumped). I used
my N4 insinct and hung back slightly until towards the end and then I'd keep
my momentum up as much as I could and when they battled in front, I'd sneak
by. Even though you were sliding a little and did have to lift, we were so
equal it turned out keeping your momentum and not getting stuck fighting
cars got you to the front. Of course, 110% for 2 hours and being jolted a
lot makes you tired!

Thanks,
Alex

Er... nope.  The "Twin Cities" in this case would have to be Payerne and
Avenches, in the French part of Switzerland.

Stephen

I

This is not a good idea. Do this for long enough and you eventually burn out
the clutch on these things. Many tracks now have sensors on their karts and
if you are double pedalling, they will hang out a "pedals" board. Continue
with this practice and you eventually get black flagged. How do I know this?
I once lost a four hour endurance race. My team had actually lapped the
field, all bar four other karts. We did a pitstop for a driver change, I
took over and managed three laps before the clutch exploded :-\

MS