rec.autos.simulators

This happens in NFS3.

Let me ask you to use your imagination.  Suppose you took the
straightline segment in NFS1, but when you got to the finish line, the
game seamlessly restarted you at the beginning.  Now, the circuit
itself may not be a closed circuit, but the game let you make multiple
runs.  So, how is the "feel" lost in that case?  Its not like we're
talking short little tracks in NFS2.  They are long and the more
advanced ones get even longer.  You go through so many twists and
bends and elevation changes and scenery changes that you have no real
sense of where you are, so in real terms, there is NO difference in
the feel of the "open road" between NFS3's circuits and the NFS1
segments.

Really?   Can you name a dozen that have come out recently?

Yes, I'll bite here.  I would love to have regular cars.  Of course, I
know that Gran Turismo will fill that void, so it makes it NFS3 a nice
difference...

Well, that's your choice as a customer.  I'd say if they'd stuck to
the non-closed circuits, it would be ME taking my driving simulation
needs elsewhere.  Obviously they don't please both of us in the same
game.

Randy

Nope.  I was reading those same messages, and I saw the complaints.
Remember first of all, that when I said this was the first complaint I
saw, I was referring to NFS *3*, so please don't try to make it look
like I said something I didn't.  Secondly, those complaints were
secondary to people griping about crappy frame rates, poor driving
feel, bad AI, etc.   The things wrong with NFS2 that people griped
about were so numerous that the issue of closed circuit vs. open
circuit would be just one of those things, and certainly didn't come
across as the most glaring flaw.

No way to get off the circle.  Hm...well it seems to me that in both
open-road and circuit races there IS a way.  Its called "the finish
line".  If you finish your laps and you haven't got caught, you got
out scot free.  In a segment non-closed loop, you get to the finish
line of a segment, and you start the next segment.  When you finish,
you're out, or are there many escape hatches in the NFS1 courses I
didn't see.  Last time I looked, you went down the road and once you
got to the end of the segment you were scot free.  What other way IS
there in EITHER event to escape?

No, mainly because I hadn't really discovered the shortcuts when I'd
written the review.  I have discovered a few now, but I haven't tried
to see whether the cops would follow me.  There is one section of the
Hometown course where you can go down to the left of the road into a
ravine that parallels the road but is below it.  The cops do NOT
follow you in there.  I wonder what would happen if I parked it there
and waited them out...would they still be there or would they go on?
I don't know -- I'll have to check that out.  Otherwise, its
reminiscent of that movie with Evil Knievel (dating myself) where the
cop cars are driving on the road and he's on his motorcycle
paralleling the road while the cops are screaming at him to pull over
from the cop car.

I've heard the caves mentioned as unrealistic.  Where else?

No, not at all.  I've said that I didn't like straight line circuits
because you couldn't really develop a rhythm on them.  In either case,
you can become familiar with the straight line or the closed circuits.
Its just a matter of whether you have to start over to get another
shot at it.  

Please.  Do you think that every racer that has closed circuits is
"exactly the same"?    And a game is dull if it has closed circuits?!
The reason most racing games have closed circuits is that most people
like to do laps and drop their lap times and develop a rhythm.  The
whole idea of a ghost car is less valid on an open-circuit for
instance.  You'd have to be able to save your ghost across sessions
for it to be of any use, whereas having the ghost car be your best lap
means that everytime you cross the S/F line you have new race with
your best time.

Randy

I'd have to side with the open track people. The exciting thing for me
in the original NFS was tearing through towns & mountains, swerving in
and out of civillian traffic. When I was being chased by the cops and
crossed the finish line I never thoght it was stupid that they
"magically stopped" chasing me, I just assumed I had crossed state lines
or something.

I'd also have to repeat what another poster commented on earlier: I,
too, think the closed track/cop pursuit mode is a dumb idea (in theory!
Pursuit Mode is a rush to play!) but I mean, c'mon, if YOU were being
chased buy 6 police cruisers, would YOU be driving the same 4 laps over
and over? It's like driving around the friggin' block over & over as
you're being chased. Again, I want to stress that I love the Pursuit
Mode in NFS3, but the logic is flawed. And I've been playing NFS since I
had it on 3DO.

Just MHO.

Pete

Someday youll thank me for all this Scary Love . -- Homer J.
Simpson
I bent my Wookie. -- Ralph Wiggum

Hi Randy,

I'm one of the many people who have complained here and on c.s.i.p.g.action
from time to time about each version of NFS since the original. I'll
try to explain why.

I don't know about you, but I started driving auto racing sims on the C-64
with the game Pitstop, then Test Drive came out, and wow! you were driving
on roads not tracks, in a road car sitting in the***pit, driving in traffic
with other vehicles coming the other way making it feel almost like real life,
it even had a working windshield wiper for the bugs that would accumulate
on the winshield! this was amazing. Later I got Test Drive 2 - The Duel on
the Amiga, now I could race an AI driver weaving in and out of other traffic,
while at the same time both of us were also trying to outrun Police car that
would pull over whichever one of us it caught up to first. What a blast.
This game along with Accolade's Grand Prix Circuit made me a diehard fan of
auto racing/driving sims for life. I spent many many fun hours racing through
traffic until I could beat the computer driver with more and more inferior
vehicles, and later competing to better my stage times.

When I upgraded to the PC I was disappointed that the PC version of the
Test Drive series was in my opinion so inferior to the Amiga versions, I
always looked back fondly to Test Drive 2 on the Amiga, and hoped someday
there would be a PC game that could capture that same great gameplay on
the PC. This finally happened when EA released Need For Speed.

Now - I also enjoy playing racing sims, where you run "laps" around a circuit
and there is nothing wrong with that, *but* one of the things that set the
Test Drive games and the original Need For Speed apart, was the fact that
you had the option of racing non repeating stages courses, where you really
have the feeling of racing to some destination, not just knocking off a set
number of laps on a repeating course, especially if you are faster than the
computer where you end up coming up on the backmarkers and have to fight to
pass them again when you lap them.

In Need for Speed, I rarely played the oval circuits, instead I love the staged
courses especially the Alpine. In a race on this course you could see how
much closer you are getting to the destination, as more and more snow
starts to appear along the sides of the road, eventually you really feel
like you drove up into the mountains.

Now Need for Speed 1 was not *perfect*. I remember at the time it came out
posting here and on some of the Need for Speed fan boards that the Cop
car that chases you was not realistic enough since it wouldn't give the
computer car a ticket when it caugh up to it, this was one very neat feature
of Test Drive 2, where you could be running away from the cop, and if you
managed to pass the computer racer while the cop was chasing you, and the
cop got ahead of the computer racer also, it would pull him over and give
him the ticket.

When rumors of NFS2 appeared, the NFS fan boards had surveys for requested
features and wishlists. Many of us made sent e-mails and posted on the
forums to make our feelings known, and eventually these lists were actually
passed on to EA.

I bought NFS-SE when it came out since I really enjoyed the improved sound
quality in the Windows version, but still we were waiting for the improvements
that NFS2 would bring.

When NFS2 came out I went and picked it up as soon as I heard, I installed
it with anticipation and could hardly believe my eyes. The graphics were
beautiful yes, but they took away all the features that in my opinion made
NFS1 so great. No cops, no staged courses, the car driving models all felt
too similar, we still had the invisible walls around the tracks, and the
tracks now were really way too wild to be believable. It was hard to believe
that with such a large list of fan requested features, EA threw all that out
and made NFS2 just another arcade racer like Whiplash or Screamer, I could
only rationalize it that maybe they were trying to attract the console game
crowd.

Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with arcade racers, I own both
arcade racers I mentioned above, but NFS1 had such a great combination of
arcade fun, *plus* just enough simulation realism, combined with almost
real-life***pits and tracks that really made it an enjoyful playing
experience. Disappointed, I ended up returning NFS2.

Shortly after releasing NFS2, EA had on their web site, a survey on what
features fans liked about the NFS series. I filled it out after finding out
about it from one of the NFS fan sites. Many of us responded to it reflecting
our wishes for them to go back to the things that made NFS1 such a success,
the rumors were that NFS2-SE would add staged tracks and cops.

Well this is getting kind of long, but I'll just say I was also greatly
disappointed with NFS2-SE. The same dumbed down arcade game that NFS2 was,
with only nicer graphics, *plus* the thing that broke the camel's back for me
was NO***PIT MODE?!? What were they thinking? The***pit mode was such an
important part that made you suspend you disbelief, and immerse yourself into
the driving experience. Soon along came the word that TD4 would have all the
features we wanted for the NFS series, the TD4 site listed many great features
that never made it into yet another promising but rushed and released
unfinished product. Sadly TD4 was also just another disappointment.

NFS3 sounds really nice (great job on the preview on your site by the way),
but why can't EA give us *both* circuit tracks for people who like those
*and* staged courses for those of us that like them? After all NFS1 had both
of these, this doesn't have to be an either/or situation, they could really
have a hit on their hands if they just went that extra step to please those of
us out here who are just waiting to spend $$ on titles that will have the
same combination of sim/arcade that NFS1 had. Hell, I would actually buy
a 3dfx version of NFS1 with new staged tracks and new cars. Seems hard
to believe they had a such a great product and abandoned some of the
qualities that made the product such a hit for people who like arcade racers
plus still very fun for those of us who also enjoy realistic simulations.

Anyhow sorry to go on about it so long, but maybe EA lurks in this
group and maybe they will realize that they have some fans of old here
just waiting for the next NFS1 to come out.

I will probably pick up NFS3, but unless it had some special qualities
that can make me overlook the fact that it has no staged courses and especially
no***pit view, I will be returning it.

EA if you are reading this, *please* bring the***pit view back in future
NFS products, we really really have to have this view for suspension of
disbelief.

Cheers.
--John

NFS1 had *both* staged courses and also closed circuits, why can't
they do this again?

With some of the great reviews you've written in the past, I know you
already realize that there are those of us out here that have different
preferences in auto racing sim features.

Even though it's not your preference, you shouldn't take it personally
that there are those of us that really miss the open circuits, and some
of these features that may be missing will sometimes cause me to return
a product as in the case of NFS2 no cops and no open circuits made me
return it.

Again, I think the right way for EA to go would be like in NFS1 where
they had both closed and open circuits.

Cheers, and I look forward to your NFS3 PC version preview :-)

--John
--
*kludger AT zipcon DOT com*  | ICQ #7522564  contact me at:
  Seattle, Washington USA.   | http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7522564

:
: >Joe's points are fairly simple: most NFS fans want the non-closed tracks.
:
: I'm one and I didn't...and apparently a lot of people who post here
: didn't either.  It seems like its a stretch to say "most NFS fans
: want" when it comes to non-closed track.

Arguing that you are "stuck" on a circuit course is a moot point, as I
don't recall much freedom to roam on the open-courses either.  In the one
case you are confined to a road course that takes about 4 minutes to finish.
In the latter you are confined to a road course that takes about 6 minutes
to finish.  Set the circuit distance to one lap and the score is even.
Throw in shortcuts and the circuits courses begin to add more freedom
of movement.  Until someone cooks up an on-the-fly environment generator,
that's as good as it gets.  For me the circuits work at suspending disbelief
if: they are long enough, they have realistic scenery and they aren't
full of "cheap" hairpins and hills for thrills.  NFS2 fell flat on its
face in the last two, with the possible exception of the Vancouver
course.  The one thing you can't completely get with the circuits is
a real open-road "feel".  It's hard to describe, but because a circuit
is constrained to "close the loop" it doesn't have the same progression
and balance of left bends, rights, sharp turns, long straights etc.
However, I think that the scenery and action of the much improved
cops in NFS3 will make *most* of us open-road fans grudgingly
forget this argument and just have fun playing. NFS1 really only had
two open road courses: the City course was a dog for driving,
but then again gave a good idea of what it would be like to drive
like an *** from one end of the city to the other, but to
make this more realistic, the game should have offered  the bonus
"City" car - a lowered CRX with 40 series tires, a big "Jackson
Racing" sitcker in the window, tint kit, neon fog lamps permanently
switched on and a spotty youth behind the wheel.  Then I would pay
EA big money to let me drive the cop car and run this guy down!

Oh, and the lighting effects in NFS3 will make us forget even more.
And the rustling leaves...

As for a dash view, a 2D dash will never capture the true view from
inside.  When I am driving, I see 90% outside the car, and my
peripheral vision catches the interior.  If I am driving hard,
e.g. in a rally, the car disappears and I just see the road
(sometimes out the wrong window!).  Personally, I can leave the
dash view behind if it gives me more fps.  But a hood view
like TOCA would help for judging tight squeezes as a sim cannot
give us peripheral vision.

Stephen

There weren't ENOUGH closed circuits in NFS1 to satisfy me.  If they
could give an ample supply of both, that would be great.

Of course I do.

I don't take it personally...I am just trying to get those who have
said that closed circuits and cops are stupid or ridiculous to
elaborate so I can find out whether its all just subjective or whether
there is some valid difference.  I remain unconvinced that a very
long, very diverse circuit is much different than an unclosed loop
except for the actual wrapping point.  I would also hope that those
people who feel this strongly would nonetheless rent NFS3 and find out
if maybe they won't be pleasantly surprised to find an incredibly fun
game.

Me too <G>

Randy

Randy

Sure, if you were conducting an illegal race.  The idea is NOT that
you are just going from point A to B really fast for no other good
reason than to go fast, and the cops want to stop you.  Come to think
of it, its not that way in NFS1, either.  The object of the game in
NFS1 is NOT merely to avoid the cops, but to WIN THE RACE TO THE
FINISH LINE.  I might ask you, if you are racing, why are you
provoking cops in the process....and if you're just driving and want
to not get caught, why are you trying to beat another car to the
finish line?  There's a flaw in the logic here.  You're subjecting the
NFS3 theory to certain standards of believability that you are not
willing to apply to NFS1.  I could turn right around and modify your
comment to say:

"I, too, think the open track/cop pursuit mode is a dumb idea (in
theory! but I mean, c'mon, if YOU were being chased buy 6 police
cruisers, would YOU care whether or not you were going to beat a
non-pursuing car to the finish line?"

See my driving instructor analogy.  Works for me.

The logic?  There is NO logic in ANY of the pursuit modes of ANY of
the NFS games.  If its logic you want, you got the wrong game.  The
difference is that you rationalize the illogic in NFS1 (your "state
line" proposal), but you will not do so for NFS3.  The logic is flawed
in all the games:

1.  Why are you ever given just a warning in ANY NFS game for doing
150+ mph through a crowded freeway.  You think they'd just warn you?!
2.  Why do cops magically stop following you in exactly the spot where
the finish line is, even if its an intermediate segment finishing
line?  How convenient for the race organizers!
3.  Why are you conducting a multi-car race in the middle of heavy
traffic with cops?
4.  Why are start/finish lines and banners sitting on normal, every
day roads?
5.  Why don't the cops use helicopters, opting instead for trying to
run you off the road risking the lives of innocent civilians?
6.  Why don't they shoot your tires out while pursuing you if they are
so eager to stop you at all costs?
7.  Why do the cops refuse to ever follow you off-road?
8.  How do the cops manage to go from 0-100mph in about 2 seconds?
9.  How does a sedan ever manage to outrun a Lamborghini Diablo?

I could go on and on.  If you're trying to find logic in this aspect
of the game (any version), you're facing a losing proposition.  None
of it makes "logical" sense.  You are simply being very selective in
choosing to accept the illogical problems in NFS1 while at the same
time condemning similar logic problems in NFS3.

Randy

Okay, I'll snip and respond where appropriate...thanks for the
explanation.

you mean the finish line? :)

I have yet to lap a car in NFS3.  The circuits are just too danged
long.

The mountain course #8 in NFS3 would suit you here....other than the
fact that eventually it closes the circuit, it seems as long as 2 or 3
of the straight line segments in NFS1.

I would find it more immersive if someone's hands were turning the
wheel, instead of looking like it was turning by itself!   But yes,
***pit view is very important to me.

You're asking the wrong person.  My feeling is that if you like the
closed circuit courses and never play the segmented courses then you
will probably wish EA would have just given you more closed courses
instead, and visa versa.  No one is ever satisfied unless they
actually like the mix.  I suggest you at least rent NFS3 and try it
out, particularly the longer 4 courses you earn by staying in the
tournament.

I dunno.  I can't say whether or not you'll return it, but I find it
so much fun I wouldn't dream of returning it, and I'm actually the
kind of person who would've said, "FORGET the cops completely..don't
need 'em".   Then one evening at 10pm I said, what the heck I'll race
with the cops.  Next thing you know its 2 am and I'm thinking, "I just
KNOW I can finish this race without getting arrested!".  Further, the
AI car I was racing was ALSO getting pulled over (sometimes I could do
things which would sic the cops on him rather than me, yuk yuk yuk).
I finally got arrested and was told that I got my 8 chances (for 8
laps) and he got 6.  So I figure even though we were only on lap 5, if
I could've lasted a little longer he'd have gotten busted <G>

I'm sure it was done for frame rate.  The frame rate really dived in
NFS2 with***pit view.  Funny thing is, a lot of the people who
griped and compared the frame rate of NFS2 versus, say Porsche
Challenge, failed to note that the latter had no***pit view and
their frame rate comparisons were using the***pit view of NFS2.
Perhaps EA figured since no one was griping about other racers' not
having a true in-car view they could s***it and save themselves the
agony of getting griped at for poor in-car frame rates.

Cheers,

Randy

To EA Canada; if your lurking out there..

For your next PC release of Need-4-Speed:
Please make us another "DRIVING SIMULATION" like your stunning 1995 NFS1
product rather than giving us another "racing GAME" like NFS2, TD4, Screamer..
and every other driving game out there.

Nothing has come close to the FUN and REALISM of NFS1 since it's release and
I still run this program often, 3 years after release.

Because...you should...
PLEASE put some point-AB Routes/tracks into your next product which convey REAL
world roads and scenery which can be viewed throught the***pit of a selected
car of unique performance and handling abilities.

The biggest thrill of driving these performance cars is going for blat along a
long enduring, challenging and unique route. Blasting past traffic, cops and
navigating tight, twisting and undulating terrain to the limits of the cars traction
and to each cars unique performance's.
In order to appreciate this the car needs to react to PRECISE controller inputs.
NFS2 did not exibit anywhere near the precise control that NFS1 had. This really
wrecks any sence of imersion in the game. Do NOT do "gamepad" type control like
TD4 has.

The Decent 15 minute length of NFS1's alpine/costal make theses tracks fresh and fun
for a Long time taking months of driving to perfect a run.
Having just short circuit type tracks limits the scope of a driving product and removes
the realism and life-sapn of the game achieved in above mentioned tracks.

It needs... A realistic player view, the best would be to implement a simular
in-car***pit view used in "TOCA touring car" where all control inputs are
visibly relayed to wheel/hand movements. At very least a simple***pit/dash
view is desirable.

... A resonable range of cars, which are REAL and in production.
Ferraris and Lambos ares good, But an NSX, MR2, BMW and 300ZX would be just as fun if
implemented as well as NFS1 did.

Waiting patiently for the ultimate Driving Simulation.

BDW
---

--
____________________________________________________________

Christchurch, New Zealand       http://www.racesimcentral.net/~bdwilso

Joe

Ah, so I'm not the only person who wants the feature as you claimed
earlier.

Not really. NFS2 SE sucked just as bad as NFS2, even though SE fixed
the frame-rate. I do agree there were many other flaws, but the lousy
tracks in NFS2 (which I grant were only partially made lousy by being
closed-circuit) were the worst part of the game.

Cool. I'm glad their getting away from the too-enclosed "invisible
walls" thing.

Well, the fact there there was very little ashphalt (rather important
if what you need is SPEED <g>) was a majoy flaw. Most of the tracks
were some kind of "fantasy rally tracks", without even realistic bends
and curves.

I disagree. The rythm you develop on open-road courses is more
realistic, more like the rythm of real driving.

Joe