rec.autos.simulators

by **David Butte** » Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Before I start, let me make it quite clear that I think GPLRank is
fantastic, and a great motivator - I am *not* having a go at it!
(Especially now my h/cap is down below the magic 50 mark - thanks
entirely to the Ring, which is my point...)

But...

I accept that the Ring is the most important track in the game, and as
such should be given a lot of weight. But just now, I chose ten people
of varying standards at random from the driver list and did a back-to-
back against the Papyrus Benchmark for them.

In *every* case, the proportion of the handicap made up by the Ring was
more than all the other 10 tracks *put together*. Sure, the Ring is
important, but not that important, surely? I worry that giving it this
much emphasis will encourage people to drive *only* the Ring and ignore
the other tracks - which is bad.

I would say that someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their
times at the other 10 tracks, but doesn't improve at the Ring, has done
a lot better than someone who knocks 16 seconds off their Ring time,
but doesn't drive anywhere else - but GPLRank doesn't reflect that.

As I say, I can't think of a sensible improvement, and I still think
GPLRank is great - I just think that, though the Ring should have a lot
of points, it shouldn't have 80%+ of them!

--
David. GPLRank h/cap 45.28 (pos 312/773)
"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,
really."
(Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

by **Michael Youn** » Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:00:00

I've got to say: the 'Ring isn't a hot-lapper's paradise. Just think of it
as stringing together 3 back-to-back record breakers anywhere else :-)
That's a whole different level of accomplishment than simply surprising
yourself by not eating hay at La Source on your all-time-otherwise-best.
Flawed as it is, it's still a very good measure of a driver's ability. (I
suck. I would still suck if we added up total times to finish the full GP
distance, in traffic, at each track.)

Michael.

by **Don Scurlo** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

The single biggest reason most people are futher away from the standard at the
Ring than they are at most other tracks, is because they have been ignoring it.

The Ring is 29% of the total track distance in gpl, so it's obviously going to
take considerably more effort than any other track. Simple math says it should
get 29% of your training time. When you give it the attention it deserves, you
will find yourself just as close to the standard there as any other track. Look
at my times, I'm right at the standard at ALL the tracks. How did this happen?
My main motivation for the last year has been to beat the times of the
included replays, both individually, and the sum total time, to get "Sub Zero".
That's how the scale GPLRank uses came into being. To do that I put in as much
effort at each track as it took to get there, including the Ring. I've gotten
Sub Zero for the total time, and I've so far beaten the individual time at 5
tracks, and I'm really close at ALL the rest. Effort equals results. As people
give the Ring the attention it deserves the whole "Ring question" will cease to
be an issue.

someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their times at the other 10 tracks,
but doesn't improve at the Ring, HASN'T BEEN DRIVING AT THE RING.

--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
GPLRank -1.90

Come see how you rate, at the GPLRank site
http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

by **bph..** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

I've been reading all this stuff and decided it is time to toss in my
$ .02. I for one think the current ranking scheme is JUST FINE. I
applaud the folks that have done gplrank and hope they leave the
scoring system alone.

> >I accept that the Ring is the most important track in the game, and
as
> >such should be given a lot of weight. But just now, I chose ten
people
> >of varying standards at random from the driver list and did a back-
to-
> >back against the Papyrus Benchmark for them.

> >In *every* case, the proportion of the handicap made up by the Ring
was
> >more than all the other 10 tracks *put together*. Sure, the Ring is
> >important, but not that important, surely? I worry that giving it
this
> >much emphasis will encourage people to drive *only* the Ring and
ignore
> >the other tracks - which is bad.

> The single biggest reason most people are futher away from the
standard at the
> Ring than they are at most other tracks, is because they have been
ignoring it.

> The Ring is 29% of the total track distance in gpl, so it's obviously
going to
> take considerably more effort than any other track. Simple math says
it should
> get 29% of your training time. When you give it the attention it
deserves, you
> will find yourself just as close to the standard there as any other
track. Look
> at my times, I'm right at the standard at ALL the tracks. How did
this happen?
> My main motivation for the last year has been to beat the times of
the
> included replays, both individually, and the sum total time, to
get "Sub Zero".
> That's how the scale GPLRank uses came into being. To do that I put
in as much
> effort at each track as it took to get there, including the Ring.
I've gotten
> Sub Zero for the total time, and I've so far beaten the individual
time at 5
> tracks, and I'm really close at ALL the rest. Effort equals results.
As people
> give the Ring the attention it deserves the whole "Ring question"
will cease to
> be an issue.

> >I would say that someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their
> >times at the other 10 tracks, but doesn't improve at the Ring, has
done
> >a lot better than someone who knocks 16 seconds off their Ring time,
> >but doesn't drive anywhere else - but GPLRank doesn't reflect that.

> someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their times at the other
10 tracks,
> but doesn't improve at the Ring, HASN'T BEEN DRIVING AT THE RING.

> --
> Don Scurlock
> Vancouver,B.C.
> GPLRank -1.90

> Come see how you rate, at the GPLRank site
> http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **Bryon Lap** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

All this talk about the Ring reminds of when I suggested in the newgroup several
years ago that ICR1 really needed a track editor. Someone joked about that if one
was available, someone would try to make The Ring....now a game has it. Is it the
full course?

> >I accept that the Ring is the most important track in the game, and as
> >such should be given a lot of weight. But just now, I chose ten people
> >of varying standards at random from the driver list and did a back-to-
> >back against the Papyrus Benchmark for them.

> >In *every* case, the proportion of the handicap made up by the Ring was
> >more than all the other 10 tracks *put together*. Sure, the Ring is
> >important, but not that important, surely? I worry that giving it this
> >much emphasis will encourage people to drive *only* the Ring and ignore
> >the other tracks - which is bad.

> The single biggest reason most people are futher away from the standard at the
> Ring than they are at most other tracks, is because they have been ignoring it.

> The Ring is 29% of the total track distance in gpl, so it's obviously going to
> take considerably more effort than any other track. Simple math says it should
> get 29% of your training time. When you give it the attention it deserves, you
> will find yourself just as close to the standard there as any other track. Look
> at my times, I'm right at the standard at ALL the tracks. How did this happen?
> My main motivation for the last year has been to beat the times of the
> included replays, both individually, and the sum total time, to get "Sub Zero".
> That's how the scale GPLRank uses came into being. To do that I put in as much
> effort at each track as it took to get there, including the Ring. I've gotten
> Sub Zero for the total time, and I've so far beaten the individual time at 5
> tracks, and I'm really close at ALL the rest. Effort equals results. As people
> give the Ring the attention it deserves the whole "Ring question" will cease to
> be an issue.

> >I would say that someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their
> >times at the other 10 tracks, but doesn't improve at the Ring, has done
> >a lot better than someone who knocks 16 seconds off their Ring time,
> >but doesn't drive anywhere else - but GPLRank doesn't reflect that.

> someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their times at the other 10 tracks,
> but doesn't improve at the Ring, HASN'T BEEN DRIVING AT THE RING.

> --
> Don Scurlock
> Vancouver,B.C.
> GPLRank -1.90

> Come see how you rate, at the GPLRank site
> http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

by **Tony Whitle** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Oh yes. Every last bit in full,***detail.

by **Mats Lofkvis** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

[snip]
[pins]

Heh, I have been driving the 'ring almost exclusively for months,
it is GPLRank that has made me go back to the rest of the tracks :-)

_
Mats Lofkvist

by **Tony Whitle** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Hear! Hear!
(for Sebastien Tixier - that means I agree wholeheartedly :-)

> I've been reading all this stuff and decided it is time to toss in my
> $ .02. I for one think the current ranking scheme is JUST FINE. I
> applaud the folks that have done gplrank and hope they leave the
> scoring system alone.

by **Ruud van Ga** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

>[snip]
>> In *every* case, the proportion of the handicap made up by the Ring was
>> more than all the other 10 tracks *put together*. Sure, the Ring is
>> important, but not that important, surely? I worry that giving it this
>> much emphasis will encourage people to drive *only* the Ring and ignore
>> the other tracks - which is bad.
>[pins]

>Heh, I have been driving the 'ring almost exclusively for months,
>it is GPLRank that has made me go back to the rest of the tracks :-)

For me the other way around.
The way GPLRank's scoring is created now is ok, since it gives a good
score of the Average Time done for a certain distance. The ring has a
lot of distance, so it makes up for a lot of the end score.
You could take another approach, which is based on The Lap. This means
you take the Papyrus benchmark lap times and normalize these lap times
(to say 100%). Any track will do, it's the proportion between the lap
times of the tracks.
So if Monza is done in 1:30:20 (Papyrus' time) and the Ring in
8:21:93, you could say in lap terms that the Ring is 5.5666 as long
(in time). Suppose you take Monza as the middle mark; if I drive
1:31:20 at Monza I would get +1 time. If I drive 8:22.93 at the Ring I
would get (1/5.5666) added to my handicap score.
This way improving a time on a small track will have as much effect on
your score as improving quite a bit (>10 seconds, say) on the Ring.
That way scoring another 1 second of Kyalami has a 'noticeable' effect
on your handicap (it would take 1*5.5666 seconds on the ring to get
the same effect).
Now it's just as if the Ring is some 5 to 6 tracks at which you all
have to score well before your handicap goes down, all this in just a
single track.
I'm not saying either method is better than the other (in fact, I
will; the current ranking system is better for the overall racer
capability), but the one I present here treats the importance of each
TRACK EQUALLY, instead of treating the importance of DISTANCE EQUALLY.
For many people perhaps, the feeling of having each TRACK be equally
important feels better than the feeling of DISTANCE being the deciding
factor. Because improving your personal best with .5 sec will feel
better on Zandvoort than on the Ring, generally speaking. And this
feeling is not supported/reflected by the GPLRanking system.

Hope you understand me. :) Best would be if this system would be
integrated NEXT to the current scoring system (as this is the best
overall time/mile indicator).

Ruud van Gaal
MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl
Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

David Buttery schrieb:

David, when you take a further look at those people who make good lap
times at the Ring you will see, that they also perform well on the other
tracks. Im shure from my own experience, when you have done a two weeks
practice session at the Ring and you move back to any other track it
seems to be peanuts to learn and to be fast on that other track.

Jo Lueg (-24.61 ??)

by **S??bastien Tixie** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

I agree with you !

--
Sebastien Tixier
Susuki 650 SVS - No Driving Licence yet
(MagicFr) GPLRank handicap -0.77
Game Developper
http://www.eden-studios.fr

by **Kirk Lan** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Ohhhhhhhhhh yesssss. All 14 miles and 174 turns of it.

--
Kirk Lane

GPLRank: 229.48
ICQ: 28171652
AIM: Kirker64
(IM me twice so I can reply...using a beta client)

"The time has come for me to kill this game
Now open wide and say my name"
- "Space Lord", Monster Magnet

> All this talk about the Ring reminds of when I suggested in the newgroup
several
> years ago that ICR1 really needed a track editor. Someone joked about
that if one
> was available, someone would try to make The Ring....now a game has it.
Is it the
> full course?

> > >I accept that the Ring is the most important track in the game, and as
> > >such should be given a lot of weight. But just now, I chose ten people
> > >of varying standards at random from the driver list and did a back-to-
> > >back against the Papyrus Benchmark for them.

> > >In *every* case, the proportion of the handicap made up by the Ring was
> > >more than all the other 10 tracks *put together*. Sure, the Ring is
> > >important, but not that important, surely? I worry that giving it this
> > >much emphasis will encourage people to drive *only* the Ring and ignore
> > >the other tracks - which is bad.

> > The single biggest reason most people are futher away from the standard
at the
> > Ring than they are at most other tracks, is because they have been
ignoring it.

> > The Ring is 29% of the total track distance in gpl, so it's obviously
going to
> > take considerably more effort than any other track. Simple math says it
should
> > get 29% of your training time. When you give it the attention it
deserves, you
> > will find yourself just as close to the standard there as any other
track. Look
> > at my times, I'm right at the standard at ALL the tracks. How did this
happen?
> > My main motivation for the last year has been to beat the times of the
> > included replays, both individually, and the sum total time, to get "Sub
Zero".
> > That's how the scale GPLRank uses came into being. To do that I put in
as much
> > effort at each track as it took to get there, including the Ring. I've
gotten
> > Sub Zero for the total time, and I've so far beaten the individual time
at 5
> > tracks, and I'm really close at ALL the rest. Effort equals results. As
people
> > give the Ring the attention it deserves the whole "Ring question" will
cease to
> > be an issue.

> > >I would say that someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their
> > >times at the other 10 tracks, but doesn't improve at the Ring, has done
> > >a lot better than someone who knocks 16 seconds off their Ring time,
> > >but doesn't drive anywhere else - but GPLRank doesn't reflect that.

> > someone who knocks a total of 15 seconds of their times at the other 10
tracks,
> > but doesn't improve at the Ring, HASN'T BEEN DRIVING AT THE RING.

> > --
> > Don Scurlock
> > Vancouver,B.C.
> > GPLRank -1.90

> > Come see how you rate, at the GPLRank site
> > http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

by **Don Scurlo** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

-net.com>:

For a great report on how accurate the GPL version of the Nurburgring
is, read this excellent story by Hena H?kk?nen
http://fgplc.figc.net/Nordschleife/nordschleife.htm

--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
GPLRank -1.90

Come see how you rate, at the GPLRank site
http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

by **Don Scurlo** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Sorry Ruud, but your not seeing the beauty(IMHO)of the scale.
The tracks are NOT equal, and distance alone is NOT the deciding factor.
This is why I go on about the OVERALL concept, of looking at the 48 miles of
GPL as one long lap.
You cannot compare the 3.573 miles of Monza to 3.573 miles of the Ring. Why?
One word: TURNS. Although the Ring is 29% of the distance of the 48 mile long
GPL lap, it makes up 56.86% of the 306 total turns in GPL ! Monza has 7 turns,
1.96 turns per mile. The Ring has 174 turns, 12.26 turns per mile.
Turns are what driving is about. The Ring is 56.86% of the game. It's not being
over empasized. The scale gives it it's exact worth. To give each track equal
weight WOULD be a distortion of OVERALL mastery of the game. Giving each track
equal weight would be a better indicator of how you would do in a seasons
racing, but we already have a scale to measure that, a seasons championship.
The Sub Zero Scale that GPLRank uses is measuring something different from
that.

--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
GPLRank -1.90

Come see how you rate, at the GPLRank site
http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

by **Jon Anderse** » Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Yo!

Racing is all about driving faster than your competitors. From the start of
the history of racing, engines has grown more and more powerfull, given the
rules they are obliged to follow (in F1: no turbochargers etc).

Fast.

Faster.

Then some powerful person with the right connections must have lost a race
or a bet, - whatever. His revenge was cruel.

Pissed of as he was, he proposed a new rule, which became a reality. Turns.

Thus, the racing tracks got turns.

This person lost several times.

Thus Nrburgring.

Jon Andersen
(Struggling hard to get through the Ring without spinning more than once)

> Turns are what driving is about.

rec.autos.simulators

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)

GPLRank - more Ring controversy :-)