rec.autos.simulators

>>Same here. Please turn off that HTML stuff, Mike! Some years ago, I
>>tried to read *every* potentially interesting contribution on USENET,
>>but my tolerance for ill formatting has gone down considerably in the
>>meantime. These days, it's "hit the 'next' key" when I see a message
>>that's hard to read due to HTML, long lines or lack of whitespace.

>You are kidding? You were willing to go through thousands upon
>thousands upon thousands of newsgroups, and millions of messages? Talk
>about free time!

>Or was this at a time when Usenet wasn't as common, and as popular, as
>it is today?

>Thanks.  Even before the operation, Dad and I didn't really see
>eye-to-eye on all issues, and it only got worse afterwards . . . ;-)

>>>I'm sorry to hear that...

>>Thanks.  Even before the operation, Dad and I didn't really see
>>eye-to-eye on all issues, and it only got worse afterwards . . . ;-)

>:-)

>>(Hey, you've gotta laugh about these things or they'll kill you!)

>Couldn't agree more!

>>I'd say that maybe it's because some people are better able to adapt
>>to the lack of input from the missing senses that usually receive
>>input when actually behind the wheel.

>I must be one heck of a highly adaptive human being then!

> --
> Ian Parker

> > I'm pretty sure that F1 only uses them in the wet. At least, that's the
> only
> > time that I notice them.

> > Mikey the Slowpoke

> > >But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm
> > >braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking.

> > >I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1.  But I could be
> > wrong.

> > >Just my 2 cents.

> > >Robert
> > >Hull, Qubec

> >They do this in real life.  My dad used to race sedans and he would tap the
> >brakes just slightly going down the front stretch to try to get the guy out
> >of the draft.  Same in open wheel cars...try throwing up your hand all of a
> >sudden, they will get off your tail in a heart beat and you can normally get
> >him out of your draft.

> Anyone who stuck their hand up to get someone out of the draft would
> likely end up with a sore face in the pits - that is a VERY dangerous
> thing to do. Brake testing, lifting etc is dangerous but an accepted
> part of racing, but putting your hand up in the air is a safety
> warning - "my car is damaged, I'm no longer racing, please don't hit
> me". Using that as a racing tactic takes the "sport" out of
> Motorsport.

> >Tom
> >wasn't getting into a discussion of why they are good and bad, he just wants
> >them which is a VERY good idea and would make online racing much more
> >enjoyable.  Sorry for running on and on but I would also like to see this
> >made.

> You would, others wouldn't. Personally I think it's an awful idea, but
> then I don't have any problem with depth perception or knowing how far
> behind I am or what my closure speed is. If you don't know when the
> guy in front of you starts braking for the corner and you run up his
> chuff it's not because of depth perception, it's because you didn't
> err on the side of caution as drivers IRL have to. Getting a gearbox
> in the face will tend to be a strong reminder.

> Adding a brake light will only allow additional information for the
> guy behind to make the pass, waiting until the person in front brakes
> before committing (particularly true for those driving in arcade view,
> where they can see the brake lights while alongside).

> In any case, think about the issues of latency, differing braking
> ability & reaction time from seeing brake lights. Do you really think
> that if you were following me and I jumped on the brakes you would be
> able to react in time? Not only in time, but under control? Not a
> chance. If you were far enough back to react you'd be far enough back
> to avoid me anyway.

> The problem which causes these shunts is lack of race awareness and
> lack of respect for other drivers, not a lack of information on what
> others are doing. There are certain drivers with whom I will happily
> _race_, brake-testing them, running close, side-by-side through
> corners etc, because I know they expect and allow for these things.
> Also if I get it wrong and brake too late I will spin the car rather
> than slide into them - that's my mistake. OTOH there are drivers, many
> of them very fast drivers, where as soon as they appear in my mirrors
> I'm resigned to a trip into the wall.

> If people want to avoid accidents, avoid contact. Practice braking
> offline into corners, know the braking points from either side of the
> track, accept that if you brake too late you should try to avoid an
> accident first and foremost, even if it does mean your quarry escapes.

> Brake lights could be possible, may be an idea but in no way will
> solve the issues put forward here. They'll be another racing tactic
> and we'll be back to wondering why people always have T1 pile ups.

> Cheers!
> John

> >On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:38:52 GMT, jbo...@irlinsider.adnetweb.com (John
> >Bodin) wrote:

> >>Again, as I said, there's no reason a braking indicator couldn't be
> >>included in GPL as an aid for on-line racing.  It's not 100% accurate,
> >>but if you think you can achieve that sitting in a desk chair watching
> >>a monitor, then more power to you.

> >You're missing the point!

> >First of all, calm down and breath in for a moment.

> >You're saying that since these aids, such as ABS brakes, were included
> >in Viper Racing, there is no reason why GPL couldn't have a braking
> >indicator as an aid too.

> >What I am saying is that it is OK for games like SCGT and Viper Racing
> >to not be _entirely_ realistic with things like these, as they both
> >share arcade and simulator qualities. GPL however is all about pure
> >simulation of the real thing, without diddly squat of an arcade feel,
> >and for this, brake lights should _not_ be included, or built in, as
> >this would take away from the authenticity.

> >>GPL itself is about simulating racing in a very pure period, just as
> >>flight sims like Red Baron simulate air combat in a very pure period.
> >>When it comes to on-line racing with GPL agains other human beings,
> >>though, we're talking about REAL-LIFE competition in a simulated
> >>environment across the Internet, usually via modem.  In the era
> >>simulated by GPL, the Internet and modems DIDN'T EXIST -- so is the
> >>inclusion of Internet play via modem unrealistic for GPL, and should
> >>it be deleted?

> >Of course not! That's like saying that since computers like the ones
> >we have today weren't around in the 60's, we shouldn't own GPL at all!

> >>My point here is that you can take the "realism" and "authenticity"
> >>arguments too far

> >I don't. I grave realism from a computer!

> >>and I think using the "realism" and "authenticity"
> >>arguments in the debate about whether brake indicators would be
> >>helpful for on-line racing is, well, going too far.

> >Actually, if you'd care to look over past messages, I never said that
> >brake lights wouldn't be helpful for on-line racing. It's a fact that
> >they would. What I said was that these brake lights would take away
> >the realism, and the enjoyment which most GPLers enjoy. Especially the
> >good ones among us. :-)

> Regarding the "realism" in GPL, consider this:

> In 1972, my father had his right eye removed due to cancer.  He
> recovered fully, but he found that his lack of depth perception was a
> real hindrance.  He found that simple things like driving nails,
> driving screws, and even driving a car were suddenly things that he
> could no longer do well because with only one eye and no real 3-D
> depth perception, he just couldn't properly judge distances.  Try it
> sometime -- cover one eye and try to do any of these things, and
> you'll probably find that it's at least a little harder to work in a
> 2-D environment than it is with full 3-D vision and proper depth
> perception.

> THIS is what you're dealing with in a simulation that only gives you
> 2-D images on a video monitor.  So every time you properly judge
> closing distance in GPL, pat yourself on the back and congratulate
> yourself, because you'll probably do just fine if you're ever left
> with only one eye.  As for realism, though, GPL falls far short in the
> visual category, regardless of how gorgeous and "realistic" the cars
> and scenery look.

> GPL models a full 3-D environment, but it's presented to us in a 2-D
> manner (i.e., a two-dimensional video display), and there's nothing
> you can do on a standard monitor (short of a 3-D device like the
> Eyescream glasses or such) to make it any more realistic.  Which means
> that in the realm of GPL, we're all effectively one-eyed pirates.
> Handicapped, if you will, much as my father was all those many years
> ago.  So, given that, it would be nice if Papy had offered those of us
> who don't do so well with only one eye the option of having some type
> of braking indicator for the cars in front of us, to better help us
> judge the distance in GPL's 2-D environment.

> Maybe my father could  have adapted with a little more practice, but
> he realized that he was not as safe as he should be, and after trying
> several times to drive after losing his eye, he quit driving for the
> remainder of his years.  Without proper 3-D depth perception, he found
> that even brake lights weren't enough to make him feel safe behind the
> wheel.  Thank God that we're only risking simulated sheetmetal and
> skin in GPL's 2-D environment, because there, we don't even have brake
> lights.  My guess is that Graham Hill would have retired from racing
> if he had ever been unfortunate enough to lose an eye, or to have his
> 3-D depth perception impaired in any way.  And yet, for the majority
> of us, apparently, GPL's 2-D environment represents the ultimate in
> "realism," and we don't want any help at all, thank you very much.
> Brake lights?  Bah!  We're real men (and women)!

> Go figure.

> Sims like GPL run into real problems as they approach ultra-realism on
> some points, mainly because no matter how "real" things are in the
> simulated environment, the user is woefully isolated from what's
> "really" happening in the sim.  We have two means of receiving
> feedback from GPL currently:  Aurally (and thankfully, the sound in
> GPL is stereophonic, just as in real life), and visually (which, as
> I've pointed out, is only 2-D, definitely NOT as it is in real life
> for most of us).

> As a simulation gets more realistic, the senses that CAN'T come into
> play become more critical, yet there's usually NO way at all to convey
> most of those sensations to the person at the controls.  Therefore,
> it's even MORE critical to find ways to utilize the EXISTING feedback
> methods (SIGHT and SOUND) to the fullest.  GPL uses sound in a good
> manner to convey what's happing to the left, right, and also ahead and
> behind to some degree, but there's nothing at all that can be done
> about the 2-D vision thing.  This is why "aids" like braking
> indicators are almost a necessity -- you're isolated enough from the
> "real" action in GPL as it is, and given the level of realism that is
> incorporated into GPL's physics model, braking indicators would be
> more of a user interface enhancement than a "cheat" or an affront to
> game's overall realism.

> On the other hand, there are those people who enjoy the concept of
> cutting off their noses to spite their face.  Thankfully for the vast
> majority of GPL users, this is all a moot point, because GPL does not
> include any braking indicators, and I doubt that anything like this
> will ever be added, and the sim's inherent "purity" and "realism" will
> be retained, intact -- in its full 2-D glory --  forever.  Amen.

> --- JB

> >>Braking indicators would be a helpful option for most people in an on-line
> >>racing environment, and if it would help avert some of the multi-car
> >>pileups and make for better racing, then why not include it?

> >Perhaps these people should practise a little more in training and
> >single race modes before going on-line? Accidents are _bound_ to
> >happen. There is little we can do to prevent them, even if you added
> >all of the aids mentioned in previous messages, pile-ups would still
> >happen. However, the very best way to prevent them is to know your car
> >well, and the best way to do I'm afraid is to practise.

> >>Or better yet, just delete the Internet play and modem options from
> >>GPL, because, after all, they're not "authentic" for the GPL era, and
> >>GPL is all about "realism," right?  And playing head-to-head against
> >>other humans while watching the action on a video monitor IS very
> >>arcade-like, so I guess it just contributes to making GPL feel more
> >>arcade-like, and, therefore, is a detriment to the game.  Damn the
> >>Papyrus folks for including Internet play as an option at the expense
> >>of realism!

> >You're talking about two entirely seperate issues! You need to stick
> >to the same conversation and finish it before moving onto something
> >else..

> >>Geez.  Tom puts forth a good idea, and we get mired down in debates
> >>about "realism" and "authenticity."

> >He put forward an excellent idea, not just a good one, but because
> >this idea conflicts with the whole reason for GPL, most of us would
> >say that it should not be implimented.

> >The Excelsior

> >"ICQ #40620378"