rec.autos.simulators

by **John Bod** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it
seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G>

I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely
in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of
TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot
come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate,
etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could
SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we
would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where
you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could
prove to be very helpful.

Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great
option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go
simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a
speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my
braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning
fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something
like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal
preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly
-- why not a speed indicator, too???

-- JB

>To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such:

>I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first
>learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I know
>Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of
>it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl
>program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl.

>I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true" to
>the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include
>them. That's not the point.

>But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be
>incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be
>possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode?

>Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys:

>If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on
>the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (road course
>racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure
>about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will
>purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift!
>That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of
>this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol).

>I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see
>separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator).

>Tom Pabst

by **John Bod** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Agreed! Makes it very easy when you're fast and in the lead to see
when a lapped car is braking WAY too early in order to take proper
evasive action.

-- JB

>>To the "Tech" guys....GPL "hackers" and such:

>>I have asked this question it seems several hundred times since first
>>learning of GPL......driving the demo in it's first days of release. I
>know
>>Papyrus has "heard" this......and since the gpl 1.1 makes no mention of
>>it.......they must be either, 1-Not able to put brake lights in the gpl
>>program, 2-Don't understand the "need" for them in online racing with gpl.

>>I'm setting aside completely the "issue" of brake lights.......not "true"
>to
>>the "era" depicted with gpl, and I understand why Papyrus didn't include
>>them. That's not the point.

>>But, if we had them......online/multiplayer racing with gpl would be
>>incredibly better! To "satisfy" the "purists".......maybe it would be
>>possible to "have" that feature only when in "Multiplayer" mode?

>>Here's my "Challenge" to the gpl community of drivers/tech guys:

>>If anyone can figure out a way to put a small red brake light...probably on
>>the gear box case....just like it is in today's open wheel cars (road
>course
>>racing in rain/wet requires them in most series...I'm not entirely sure
>>about F1 since I don't follow it closely).......if you do it.....I will
>>purchase any 3D video card of your choice and ship it to you as a gift!
>>That is on my honor and I'm giving my "word"......(Papyrus...you're "out of
>>this deal"......you don't need a video card...lol).

>>I am VERY serious about this (as I am my "next" and similar request....see
>>separate "post"...In-car Speed Indicator).

>>Tom Pabst

by **John Walla** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

>You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it
>seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G>

You shouldn't imagine that because people don't agree with the point
that they don't understand it. It's well understood, just not
everyone's cup of tea apparently.

Cheers!
John

by **Tom Pabs** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Thank you John, you put it in a more "succinct" manner than I did.....but
you are "exactly" on target with what I had in my mind when I wrote the post
above about brake lights and speed indicators. I read with interest the
word "cheat"......in the context you used it.....I guess it is a "cheat" to
some degree. Whether its a "cheat" or a "driving aid" I guess doesn't
matter......it will make online racing with gpl more "fun" and with less
"car contact"....so that's my goal.

TP

>You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it
>seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G>

>I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely
>in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of
>TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot
>come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate,
>etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could
>SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we
>would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where
>you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could
>prove to be very helpful.

>Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great
>option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go
>simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a
>speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my
>braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning
>fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something
>like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal
>preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly
>-- why not a speed indicator, too???

>-- JB

by **Tom Pabs** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Sorry about that.......I tend to use "quotes" more in newsgroup posts where
the use of HTML rich text is discouraged......and therefore there's a lack
of tools to highlight or emphasize words. When I use a "quotation" around a
word it's meant to emphasize the word....or the point. I could use *star*
marks as well.....which I've seen done quite often. I agree with you
though, the "quotes" tend to be *distracting* for the eyes....I'll try to
change that bad habit. Thank you for the feedback.

TP

by **Jack Ramb** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Jason...

1. The Tom Pabst that you allege "thinks he knows everything" (Tom's
Hardware) is NOT the same Tom Pabst that initiated this thread.

2. As the Tom Pabst that initiated this thread is a two-time SCCA National
Champion, former BMW factory team driver, and SCCA competition license
instructor, I would certainly argue that he knows a thing or two more about
racing then virtually anybody that sets foot in this newsgroup.

3. I would also argue that some of that wealth of racing experience
translates nicely to sim racing.

4. Based on the flip, obnoxious way that you and others responded to Tom's
posts, I'd be willing to bet that Tom probably turned his first wheel in a
race car about the time you and your peers climbed aboard your first
tricycles..

Tom is an avid sim racing enthusiast and makes very meaningful contributions
to the community by publishing columns, offering his services
as a sim racing instructor, and organizing sim racing events and leagues.

When you, or any of the others, can match Tom's credentials let us know.
Until then, work on disagreeing in a more courteous manner and in a manner
that better reflects your expertise relative to Tom's.

Jack Rambo

www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

by **Tom Pabs** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

>WOW ease off! Careful mate or your bend my exhaust manifold......

>What was that you said? never driven a racecar of any sort...... HMM...
>Jeee... you know lots about me..... BUD.

Tim.....

I'm very sorry.

I have not "visited" this newsgroup very often over the last few years I've
been involved with online sim racing. I'm used to the newsgroups on TEN and
a few others where almost everyone is an American....or from the USA. I
totally forgot that many of the people who contribute to this newsgroup are
NOT Americans.....and have often a different "slant" or meaning to sentences
and words than I have. At first reading, I took your "post" to be
sarcastic....and upon re-reading it this morning.....I realize that you
weren't intending to be "sarcastic" in any way.

I apologize to you.

And, I apologize to everyone one else.....in advance......if/when when I do
this again.

Regards,

Tom Pabst

by **Don Scurlo** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Since the first time I played GP2 I was frustrated by the complete
lack of sensory feedback, from g force, through the wheel,
the lack of depth perception, and sense of speed.
ANYTHING that can give me information about what's going on with the
car would be welcome, regardless of whether or not it's realistic in
terms of the "sim". I would like to go one step further and have a
real time bar graph somewhere on the screen to indicate tire
traction, so that you could tell when you were approaching the
cornering and braking limits of the tires.

Don Scurlock
Vancouver, B.C.

by **Tim Wheatle** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

it's not a problem for me.... but i think we started an argument for others
:o(

by **Alie** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Yep, I was reading the posts, and it seemed really strange where he placed
the quotes, there are way too many.

- Alien

by **Jesse Blac** » Mon, 14 Jun 1999 04:00:00

They do this in real life. My dad used to race sedans and he would tap the
brakes just slightly going down the front stretch to try to get the guy out
of the draft. Same in open wheel cars...try throwing up your hand all of a
sudden, they will get off your tail in a heart beat and you can normally get
him out of your draft. Its all mind games out there. If someone wants to
feather the brakes, let him, just pass him and do the same to him. Tom
wasn't getting into a discussion of why they are good and bad, he just wants
them which is a VERY good idea and would make online racing much more
enjoyable. Sorry for running on and on but I would also like to see this
made.

Jesse

>But then, if I wanted to fool the person behind me into thinking that I'm
>braking, I could just feather the brake pedal without actually braking.

>I think thats why they don't have brake lights in F1. But I could be
wrong.

>Just my 2 cents.

>Robert
>Hull, Qubec

by **Ross MacGrego** » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Well said jack
Ross
Jack Rambo a crit dans le message ...

>Jason...

>1. The Tom Pabst that you allege "thinks he knows everything" (Tom's
>Hardware) is NOT the same Tom Pabst that initiated this thread.

>2. As the Tom Pabst that initiated this thread is a two-time SCCA National
>Champion, former BMW factory team driver, and SCCA competition license
>instructor, I would certainly argue that he knows a thing or two more about
>racing then virtually anybody that sets foot in this newsgroup.

>3. I would also argue that some of that wealth of racing experience
>translates nicely to sim racing.

>4. Based on the flip, obnoxious way that you and others responded to Tom's
>posts, I'd be willing to bet that Tom probably turned his first wheel in a
>race car about the time you and your peers climbed aboard your first
>tricycles..

>Tom is an avid sim racing enthusiast and makes very meaningful
contributions
>to the community by publishing columns, offering his services
>as a sim racing instructor, and organizing sim racing events and leagues.

>When you, or any of the others, can match Tom's credentials let us know.
>Until then, work on disagreeing in a more courteous manner and in a manner
>that better reflects your expertise relative to Tom's.

>Jack Rambo

>www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

by **Paul Ales** » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Yeah,lets put turn signals on the cars too,so that ppl know when we are
turning into the pit's.........c'mon seriouslly!!!!

> Thank you John, you put it in a more "succinct" manner than I did.....but
> you are "exactly" on target with what I had in my mind when I wrote the
post
> above about brake lights and speed indicators. I read with interest the
> word "cheat"......in the context you used it.....I guess it is a "cheat"
to
> some degree. Whether its a "cheat" or a "driving aid" I guess doesn't
> matter......it will make online racing with gpl more "fun" and with less
> "car contact"....so that's my goal.

> TP

> >You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it
> >seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G>

> >I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely
> >in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of
> >TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot
> >come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate,
> >etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could
> >SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we
> >would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where
> >you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could
> >prove to be very helpful.

> >Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great
> >option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go
> >simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a
> >speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my
> >braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning
> >fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something
> >like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal
> >preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly
> >-- why not a speed indicator, too???

> >-- JB

by **John Bod** » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Tom,

You're quite welcome -- everything you proposed makes a lot of sense.
Even if it wasn't accurate for the era that's being modeled, there's
no reason it can't be included as an option. SCGT and Viper Racing
include ABS, for example, which isn't always 100% accurate for the
cars being modeled. It's a nice option to have available, though, and
if you decide not to use those kinds of options in the name of
authenticity, then that's all well and good, but it would also be nice
to have the choice in the first place.

As far as cost and difficulty, you would only be talking about the
addition of a few lines of code to display what info is already being
calculated/tabulated in the sim's physics model anyway. Your car's
speed and the AI's braking inputs are already taken into account in
the sim already, so displaying this info is just a matter of adding
lines of code to display the pixels or digits on the screen. It is
do-able, and it would be a nice option to have brake lights and speed
indicators available.

Thanks for your input on this -- hopefully it will get people
thinking, rather than sniping.

-- John Bodin
Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine
http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

>Thank you John, you put it in a more "succinct" manner than I did.....but
>you are "exactly" on target with what I had in my mind when I wrote the post
>above about brake lights and speed indicators. I read with interest the
>word "cheat"......in the context you used it.....I guess it is a "cheat" to
>some degree. Whether its a "cheat" or a "driving aid" I guess doesn't
>matter......it will make online racing with gpl more "fun" and with less
>"car contact"....so that's my goal.

>TP

>>You might as well have been making a post about the IRL, Tom -- it
>>seems that everybody missed the point entirely. <G>

>>I agree with you that a "cheat" like brake lights would help immensely
>>in a sim -- in a 2D environment (i.e., our monitors) we're deprived of
>>TRUE 3D vision, which means that perspective, parallax, etc., cannot
>>come into play to help us "read" the relative distance, closing rate,
>>etc., as well as we could in real life. I'm guessing that we could
>>SEE that the car in front was braking with brake lights long before we
>>would NOTICE that the distance was closing, and in a simulation (where
>>you already have limited feedback anyway), things like this could
>>prove to be very helpful.

>>Put me down as one who agrees with you that this would be a great
>>option. Ditto the speed indicator -- I never even use the tach; I go
>>simply on engine note, and I find that in games (sim) that show me a
>>speed indication, I can set up my corner entry speed (and observe my
>>braking effectiveness) much more consistently, which means I'm turning
>>fast laps more quickly. Viper Racing comes to mind here. Something
>>like that which could be toggled off or on depending on your personal
>>preference would be great for GPL. They give us frame rate on the fly
>>-- why not a speed indicator, too???

>>-- JB

by **The Excelsi** » Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:00

On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:02:24 +0100, "Ian Parker"

>I don't think they are brake lights, just high intensity lights which the
>drivers use to see other cars through the spray, they are permanently on in
>poor visibilty.

You're right.

It can be incredibly difficult to see cars in front when it's raining
in F1. At those speeds, with all that spray, you can often be in zero
visibility.

Having a bright light at the back of each car can help the drivers
behind make out the cars in front, despite all the spray.

The Excelsior

"ICQ #40620378"

rec.autos.simulators

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL

Brake Lights For Online Racing - GPL