Borut
I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims
that anything else would require a massive ground up development project
that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM
of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out
there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title.
Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next
legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they
could easily do with that in no particular order is:
1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing"
from the work of the guys at the Pits site.
2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2
is not beyond reason.
3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here.
As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy
stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable
future.
Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that
anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point
that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity.
Create every race game with the absolute best physics model possible.
This would satisfy Papy's desire for a great product as well as a few people
who desire the best. Then...either dummy up this physics model for all the
others or maybe even offer two installation products on the same CD. I like
GPL physics the way it is but if it would have had enough dummy physics
sliders available, everybody would have bought that game. The way it has
been with Papy AFTER the GPL sales disaster is that they are afraid to use
completely true physics in futer sims when in reality, it does not have to
be that way. Offer both for everyone to choice from. Over and out.
> I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims
> that anything else would require a massive ground up development project
> that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM
> of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out
> there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title.
> Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next
> legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they
> could easily do with that in no particular order is:
> 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing"
> from the work of the guys at the Pits site.
> 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to
GPL2
> is not beyond reason.
> 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here.
> As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy
> stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable
> future.
> Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts
that
> anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point
> that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity.
> > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the
> > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or
Cart
> > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games
> from
> > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of
time
> > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite
> hight
> > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a
huge
> > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2?
> > Borut
NASCAR is HUGE!
There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it.
4 Different channels competing for rights to show it.
One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another
channel has rights to the race... You get the idea.
Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and
Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the
NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or
F1 sim.
The US RAS guys like me probably aren't a great representation of the
NASCAR fanaticism in the US.
I love to catch Rallies, Touring Cars, or F1 on TV, the average NASCAR
fan doesn't.
You really need to pay attention to see F1, and it's a miracle to
catch Rally stuff more than a few times a year (I don't have
Speedvision). I'm also a complete motorcycle fanatic, and soak up all
the Supercross and National action I can, and can't wait to get
Speedvision so I can watch the MXGP's.
I like the NASCAR sims for online racing. The ovals make for fun,
accessible multi-player. I'm really looking forward to both Heat and
N4, even though I'm not a huge NASCAR fan.
Tim
There's probably one other thing that comes into play: licensing. I seem
to recall reading somewhere that when you compete in NASCAR at the WC
level (maybe BGN too), NASCAR owns the rights to your name, likeness,
sponsor and car appearance, etc... It's kind of like a model release for
motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about
producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal with
NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the
picture. I think the tracks are the same way too (Daytona and IMS
aside). That HAS to cut down immensely on the legal bills. Of course all
of this is from memory so I could be wrong. Anyway, the cost of licensing
NASCAR is probably next to being free compared to the cost of licensing
F1 from Bernie.
--
| "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our
pez
> >Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the
> >near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart
> >sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games
from
> >EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of
time
> >and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite
hight
> >to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge
> >hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2?
> You have to be in the US to understand.
> F1 is really a fringe sport here in the U.S. It's televised, sometimes
> live if the schedule permits, but there is never a big deal made of
> it.
> CART is more popular, with some big US based sponsors, but it's still
> not what it used to be.
> Bigger crowds turn out for National drag events than CART races.
> It's been said hundreds of times, but the CART/IRL split really
> knocked the wind out of CART. IRL races are mostly ghost towns, so
> they didn't accomplish anything, either.
> NASCAR is HUGE!
> There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it.
> 4 Different channels competing for rights to show it.
> One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another
> channel has rights to the race... You get the idea.
> Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and
> Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the
> NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or
> F1 sim.
> The US RAS guys like me probably aren't a great representation of the
> NASCAR fanaticism in the US.
> I love to catch Rallies, Touring Cars, or F1 on TV, the average NASCAR
> fan doesn't.
> You really need to pay attention to see F1, and it's a miracle to
> catch Rally stuff more than a few times a year (I don't have
> Speedvision). I'm also a complete motorcycle fanatic, and soak up all
> the Supercross and National action I can, and can't wait to get
> Speedvision so I can watch the MXGP's.
> I like the NASCAR sims for online racing. The ovals make for fun,
> accessible multi-player. I'm really looking forward to both Heat and
> N4, even though I'm not a huge NASCAR fan.
> Tim
> >NASCAR is HUGE!
> >There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it.
> >4 Different channels competing for rights to show it.
> >One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another
> >channel has rights to the race... You get the idea.
> >Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and
> >Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the
> >NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or
> >F1 sim.
> There's probably one other thing that comes into play: licensing. I seem
> to recall reading somewhere that when you compete in NASCAR at the WC
> level (maybe BGN too), NASCAR owns the rights to your name, likeness,
> sponsor and car appearance, etc... It's kind of like a model release for
> motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about
> producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal with
> NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the
> picture. I think the tracks are the same way too (Daytona and IMS
> aside). That HAS to cut down immensely on the legal bills. Of course all
> of this is from memory so I could be wrong. Anyway, the cost of licensing
> NASCAR is probably next to being free compared to the cost of licensing
> F1 from Bernie.
> --
> | "Instead of letting the moon be the
> Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let
> Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our
Prediction: IF (and it's a big "if," granted) Papy somehow falters
with N4, they will evaporate, vanish, and cease to exist. Yes, GPL was
awesome, and N4 should (note that I said SHOULD) be equally awesome,
but the marketplace is where the battle is fought, not here at RAS
among the diehard sim racers. If they don't strike the right balance,
they run the risk of producing a game that's too realistic and
difficult, which means the masses may shun (which is what happened with
GPL), and if they err in the opposite direction, they run the risk of
having the sim racing devotees will turn their backs on them. Even if
Papy gets EVERYTHING right with N4, there are a lot of people waiting
in the wings to knock them off their precarious throne.
The MGI team is made up of former Papy people, and if some of the
things in NASCAR Heat turn out to play better in the marketplace than
N4, then it could be the end of Papy.
If not MGI and Hasbro, then there are plenty of other competitors out
there. Even as bad as NASCAR Revolution was, you can BET that it ate
into Papy's sales, and that had to hurt. Good thing they were just
resting on their laurels and not really doing anything really costly.
EA's NASCAR 2000 may not be OUR cup of tea, but there are folks out
there who have bought it, and they enjoy it. How many of those folks
bought N2K instead of N3? That's also got to hurt Papy's bank
account. And sooner or later, EA, Hasbro, or SOMEBODY is going to
produce a superior NASCAR product, and then what's Papy going to do?
It's inevitable, folks -- in business, it's lead, follow, or get out of
the way, and there are a lot of folks nipping at Papy's NASCAR-clad
heels.
Anybody want to buy another Craftsman Truck add-on . . . along with
another copy of N3 and NASCAR Legends, to go with the copies that you
already bought, separately? Pathetic marketing ploy, IMO.
Now, if Papy would get off their license-sucking @$$&$ and do something
innovative AND marketable (more marketable than GPL, anyway), THEN that
would be something to make us all take notice, including the
competition. As it is, nobody's chasing Papy these days, they're
chasing the NASCAR gravy train -- nobody wants to make a better sim
than Papy, just a better NASCAR game (or sim . . . whichever makes the
most money and unseats Papy from the throne).
Now, if Papy was paying attention, Ratbag wouldn't have slipped us that
neat little gem called Dirt Track Racing, and they wouldn't be the
company bringing us a new Sprint car game, either -- it would be the
industry leader, Papy. If Papy was truly king, then MGI wouldn't have
brought us that amazing piece of work caled Viper Racing, because Papy
would have been sucking the marrow out of THAT license while further
proving that THEY were the industry leader. If Papy was really in
charge, EA's in-house team wouldn't have pocketed all of Porsche's
coinage to bring us that surprising gem that's called NFS:PU, because
Papy would have been getting rich off that.
Papy didn't do any of these things -- they were resting on their
laurels while the competition was getting richer, more savvy, and much,
much closer in terms of capabilities.
Yes, Papy has been resting on their laurels for far too long, and
that's how companies die. Rendition, once one of the industry leaders
in 3D graphics, is all but gone now, and 3DFx, once THE undisputed 3D
leader, is now playing catch-up with a lot of other companies. The
leader only stays on top if they outpace the competition, and Papy may
have set the bar, but they're not pushing the envelope at all (if I may
mix metaphors there a bit), and there are a LOT of other companies who
are getting within reach of that bar.
Good for us. Too bad for Papy if they continue to snooze. I don't
want to see this company fade away like some pathetic, aging rock
star. GPL was/is awesome, but in another year or so, it's going to
take a LOT of tweaking to make even that game engine stay abreast of
what's on the horizon.
Wake up, Papy, before it's too late.
-- JB
In article <8fco3q$n9...@ionews.ionet.net>,
"Lewis" <1ariz...@ionet.net> wrote:
> Create every race game with the absolute best physics model
possible.
> This would satisfy Papy's desire for a great product as well as a few
people
> who desire the best. Then...either dummy up this physics model for
all the
> others or maybe even offer two installation products on the same CD.
I like
> GPL physics the way it is but if it would have had enough dummy
physics
> sliders available, everybody would have bought that game. The way it
has
> been with Papy AFTER the GPL sales disaster is that they are afraid
to use
> completely true physics in futer sims when in reality, it does not
have to
> be that way. Offer both for everyone to choice from. Over and out.
> > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return
on
> there
> > investments here lately.
> > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development
for
> > around 2 years now for all practical purposes.
> > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick
and easy
> > mods to an allready established product and get into consumers
wallets
> > again. This product some would say was actually conceived and
tested for
> > Papy by the folks at the Pits site through their N@50 project.
> > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but
NASCAR sims
> > that anything else would require a massive ground up development
project
> > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE
NASCAR SIM
> > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever
companies out
> > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative
title.
> > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the
next
> > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think
they
> > could easily do with that in no particular order is:
> > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again
"borrowing"
> > from the work of the guys at the Pits site.
> > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4
to
> GPL2
> > is not beyond reason.
> > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here.
> > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have
publicy
> > stated on their message boards that that is no where in the
foreseeable
> > future.
> > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my
doubts
> that
> > anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a
point
> > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity.
> > Borut Srebotnik <borut.srebot...@siol.net> wrote in message
> > news:WhkS4.3155$ep.111982@news.siol.net...
> > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy
in the
> > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1
or
> Cart
> > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1
games
> > from
> > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a
lot of
> time
> > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be
quite
> > hight
> > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to
be a
> huge
> > > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or
GP2?
> > > Borut
In real-life of course (and probably a much higher ratio), but we are
talking about the PC *** business here. It's a totally different thing.
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
If they just wanted to make a sim for whatever sport is biggest,
they'd be making a soccer (football) sim.
Tim
Borut
>In real-life of course (and probably a much higher ratio), but we are
>talking about the PC *** business here. It's a totally different thing.
>--
>-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
>-- May the Downforce be with you...
>-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
>how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
> >F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1.
> You completely missed my point. Papyrus' prime market is the US.
> If they just wanted to make a sim for whatever sport is biggest,
> they'd be making a soccer (football) sim.
> Tim
>> motorsports. So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about
>> producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal
with
>> NASCAR. The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the
Gunner
Sudesh
> Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on there
> investments here lately.
> After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for
> around 2 years now for all practical purposes.
> N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy
> mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets
> again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for
> I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims
> that anything else would require a massive ground up development project
> that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM
> of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out
> there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title.
> Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next
> legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they
> could easily do with that in no particular order is:
> 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing"
> from the work of the guys at the Pits site.
> 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2
> is not beyond reason.
> 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here.
> As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy
> stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable
> future.
> Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that
> anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point
> that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity.
> > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the
> > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart
> > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games
> from
> > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time
> > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite
> hight
> > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge
> > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2?
> > Borut
