rec.autos.simulators

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

pez

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by pez » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00

Papyrus are paying around $3million a year for the rights to the tracks they
use......everything else costs alot as well....

pez




> >You have to be in the US to understand.
> >F1 is really a fringe sport here in the U.S. It's televised, sometimes
> >live if the schedule permits, but there is never a big deal made of
> >it.
> >CART is more popular, with some big US based sponsors, but it's still
> >not what it used to be.
> >Bigger crowds turn out for National drag events than CART races.
> >It's been said hundreds of times, but the CART/IRL split really
> >knocked the wind out of CART. IRL races are mostly ghost towns, so
> >they didn't accomplish anything, either.

> >NASCAR is HUGE!
> >There are probably a dozen shows dedicated to it.
> >4 Different channels competing for rights to show it.
> >One channel showing pre-race shows and Happy Hour, even though another
> >channel has rights to the race... You get the idea.

> >Like it or not, NASCAR is where the money is at in the US, and
> >Electronic Arts, Hasbro and Papyrus can make more money splitting the
> >NASCAR market than they could being the only company making a CART or
> >F1 sim.

> There's probably one other thing that comes into play: licensing.  I seem
> to recall reading somewhere that when you compete in NASCAR at the WC
> level (maybe BGN too), NASCAR owns the rights to your name, likeness,
> sponsor and car appearance, etc... It's kind of like a model release for
> motorsports.  So when some softwhere company approaches NASCAR about
> producing a game, they only have to negotiate a single licensing deal with
> NASCAR.  The teams, drivers, sponsors, and such are out of the
> picture.  I think the tracks are the same way too (Daytona and IMS
> aside).  That HAS to cut down immensely on the legal bills.  Of course all
> of this is from memory so I could be wrong.  Anyway, the cost of licensing
> NASCAR is probably next to being free compared to the cost of licensing
> F1 from Bernie.
> --
>                     | "Instead of letting the moon be the
> Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
> Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our


pez

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by pez » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00

Papyrus are owned by a French company.........

pez



> >F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1.

> You completely missed my point. Papyrus' prime market is the US.

> If they just wanted to make a sim for whatever sport is biggest,
> they'd be making a soccer (football) sim.

> Tim

Racer8

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by Racer8 » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00

Yeah that'll work too.
TransAm Legends would be awesome.


> What about a Nascar4 to TransAm '69?

> Sudesh


> > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on
there
> > investments here lately.
> > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for
> > around 2 years now for all practical purposes.
> > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and
easy
> > mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets
> > again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for

> > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR
sims
> > that anything else would require a massive ground up development project
> > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR
SIM
> > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies
out
> > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title.

> > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next
> > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they
> > could easily do with that in no particular order is:

> > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again
"borrowing"
> > from the work of  the guys at the Pits site.
> > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to
GPL2
> > is not beyond reason.
> > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here.

> > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy
> > stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable
> > future.

> > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts
that
> > anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point
> > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity.



> > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in
the
> > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or
Cart
> > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games
> > from
> > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of
time
> > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite
> > hight
> > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a
huge
> > > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2?

> > > Borut

Dave Henri

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by Dave Henri » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00


> What about a Nascar4 to TransAm '69?

> Sudesh

  I don't know if I'm supposed to say this...But the folks who gave us
the Touring car Patches for N2/N99, the TPTCC from the uspits.com, have
come up with some interesting plans for N3/NL.  I do believe we will see
Mustangs and Camaro's and Javelin's and Cuda's by this summer.
dave henrie

> > Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on there
> > investments here lately.
> > After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for
> > around 2 years now for all practical purposes.
> > N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy
> > mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets
> > again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for

> > I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims
> > that anything else would require a massive ground up development project
> > that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM
> > of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out
> > there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title.

> > Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next
> > legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they
> > could easily do with that in no particular order is:

> > 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing"
> > from the work of  the guys at the Pits site.
> > 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2
> > is not beyond reason.
> > 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here.

> > As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy
> > stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable
> > future.

> > Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that
> > anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point
> > that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity.



> > > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the
> > > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart
> > > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games
> > from
> > > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time
> > > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite
> > hight
> > > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge
> > > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2?

> > > Borut

ymenar

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by ymenar » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00


So what's the problem with that?

I sense some Xenophobia in you...

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenar

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by ymenar » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00


No, Im saying that the principal market of games is countries with
high-income population (mostly Japan, Australia, North America and Europe).
Even if the market is high in Europe, it's still nowhere in sales compared
to the US.  Just look at the population spread on sites with GPL or Nascar
racers.  It's an absolute crunch by Americans.  It's simply a fact.  Of
course there is popularity in gamers for Formula 1 simulation, but it's
still much smaller than NASCAR for Sierra.  Of course I don't agree with
that, but the suits at Sierra do not want racing simulations by Papyrus to
be focused on smaller markets like we have for flight sims.

I mean... Im sorry but the rest of the world don't have much access to PC,
and alot less to games. It's sad, but that's how it is.  It's where Formula
1 is the most popular (ex: Brazil).

Personally I want anything that has the new game engine.  Anything! Even
School bus Demolition Derbies on 8-shaped tracks :)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Tim O

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by Tim O » Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:00


>Papyrus are owned by a French company.........

...and every sim they've made with the exception of GPL has been
geared toward US based motorsport... CART, SODA, and NASCAR.

They are designing sims primarily for the US market.

Tim

Bill Met

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by Bill Met » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

Better yet, Can-Am '69.  But that brings the lovely world of
simulating aerodynamics into the mix.  Wouldn't argue much at all with
TransAm '69 though.



>What about a Nascar4 to TransAm '69?

>Sudesh


>> Looks like to me they are into getting the absolute biggest return on there
>> investments here lately.
>> After all what will come to be known as N4 has been in development for
>> around 2 years now for all practical purposes.
>> N Legends was a great way for them to make some apparently quick and easy
>> mods to an allready established product and get into consumers wallets
>> again. This product some would say was actually conceived and tested for

>> I am afraid they have gotten so far departed from anything but NASCAR sims
>> that anything else would require a massive ground up development project
>> that would be detrimental to their obvious dedication to be THE NASCAR SIM
>> of choice. Let's face it. There are for the first time ever companies out
>> there that now wish to make a serious run at that truly lucrative title.

>> Which kinda brings me in a round about way to my thread about the next
>> legends title if there is one. The three most likely things I think they
>> could easily do with that in no particular order is:

>> 1. Totally "new" product with a touring car theme. Once again "borrowing"
>> from the work of  the guys at the Pits site.
>> 2. GPL 2. If they can bring GPL to N4 then one could figure that N4 to GPL2
>> is not beyond reason.
>> 3. N Legends 2. Again not a big reach here.

>> As far as another CART sim from Papy goes there own folks have publicy
>> stated on their message boards that that is no where in the foreseeable
>> future.

>> Other than an occaisional spin-off title (aka Legends) I have my doubts that
>> anything other than NASCAR will be foremost in Papy's mind until a point
>> that NASCAR falters in it's massive popularity.



>> > Anyone know if there will be any non-Nascar simulations from Papy in the
>> > near future? For me it is just sad that Papy won't do a modern F1 or Cart
>> > sim. And i can't see the reason for this either. If there are F1 games
>> from
>> > EA, Eidos and others why can't they do it? There is probably a lot of time
>> > and money invested in Papyrus simulations and the sales must be quite
>> hight
>> > to cover the costs but i just can't see a F1 or Cart sim not to be a huge
>> > hit. BTW what are the sales numbers for Nascar2 or N3 and F1GP or GP2?

>> > Borut

--
                    | "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our

Bill Met

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by Bill Met » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

  Ok.  I admit that my "ease of licensing" reasoning was bad.  However,
I'd still contend that US $3 million is probably peanuts compared to
licensing Formula 1.



>Papyrus are paying around $3million a year for the rights to the tracks they
>use......everything else costs alot as well....

>pez

--
                    | "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our

R.G. Koehler Jr

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by R.G. Koehler Jr » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00


> F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1.

Maybe 100 to 1 but here in the US it isn't going to sell
and Papyrus cannot afford to gamble on the investment the
F1 licensing would require. Heck, they won't even license
the actual car makes and several of the tracks WC runs on.
No way are they going to deal with Dictator Bernie and FISA.

--
Rich Koehler
rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com
killerk(at)home(dot)com

pez

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by pez » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

?????????????

Just stating that Papy money comes and goes from/to france.

I hope that the french owner Havas could put some pressure on Papy for an F1
sim.

???????????????xenophobia???????????where did you get that
from??????????????

pez??????????


> > Papyrus are owned by a French company.........

> So what's the problem with that?

> I sense some Xenophobia in you...

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.WeRace.net
> -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenar

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by ymenar » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00


And what is the relation between the country of France and Formula 1 racing
simulation in today's internationalised business world?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Mike Laske

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by Mike Laske » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00



> > F1 is bigger globally than nascar.....by at least 4 to 1.

With respect, the guys considering the moneys are probably looking at the US
market as its primary driving force.  In which case, yep, you'd be daft to
deviate from NASCAR.

But look at Germany and Japan and you can sell F1 sims by the bucket load.

Mike.

pez

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by pez » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

french prefer f1 to nascar...
same with the brits, germans, japanese, malaysians etc

Im generalising of course, youll find more fans of f1 in these countries
than nascar.

Id just love to see a papy f1 sim.

pez



> > Just stating that Papy money comes and goes from/to france.

> And what is the relation between the country of France and Formula 1
racing
> simulation in today's internationalised business world?

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.WeRace.net
> -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Dave Henri

Papy concentrating on Nascar titles only?

by Dave Henri » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00


> french prefer f1 to nascar...
> same with the brits, germans, japanese, malaysians etc

> Im generalising of course, youll find more fans of f1 in these countries
> than nascar.

> Id just love to see a papy f1 sim.

> pez

  While I appreciate Papyrus' abilities...I have to as WHY?  The only
avenue that would interest me would be more historical sim.  70's and
80's F1.   But surely no modern version.  There are 5 or 6 current
modern F1 sims.  Why  add to that total..even if you can produce a
better product...the market is WAAYY oversaturated.  Nascar is starting
to reach that same level of more product than market demand but since
Papy is opperating as the class market leader...they can continue to
reap profits from that form of racing.  
  World Rally is covered
  Touring Cars are at least partially covered.
  Sports Cars and LeMans seems to have untouched potiential so far.
  Motorcycles are fast approaching oversaturation
  Which of the 6 to 8 American Road Racing series are covered?
  (with the exception of CART, I can't see any current American
   series generating enough interest to fund a serious sim)
  F3k is seen as Jr league and therefore not appropriate for
  a sim of it's own...Wouldn't gp3 be great if it included a full
  F3 product as well?
  Same goes for Indy Lights, Toyota Atlantic, Barber Dodge.  SCCA
sims have a built in core market but probably wouldn't get enough
support from outsiders.
    The big leagues just can't sustain continued versions of the same
product released every buying cycle.  The little sims like DTR can
succeed here if they find a niche that grabs attention from several
different types of fans.
  So sorry I rambled...  I'll sum-up.
 WHY Another F1 sim?  We have tons of them already.  Do we have any Cart
products at this time?  That is one of the few major series that is
underexposed.  CART with Indy Lights and Toyota Atlantic as part of the
same package could be something.  Before your career in CART happens you
have to produce in the the two minor leagues to grab the attention of
the CART owners.  Lets make it a Series simulator, not just a driving
package.(although that would be NICE too.)
dave henrie

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