rec.autos.simulators

I am finding myself in a situation where I'm (forced) to run against the AI
at all the Papy tracks (the reason is not important, but its a legitimate
reason).  I've heard all the complaints against the Papy AI.....since the N3
days.  Normally, MP takes 99% of my sim racing time.....so I never really
cared (maybe Papy doesn't care about their AI for the same reason?
...lol....).

So...after running against the AI for several weeks now, here's some
thoughts/questions.......words of frustration:

1.  Using the AI strength slider to adjust the AI speed, visa vise the real
Cup driver's speeds at any given track - is virtually useless.  Why?
Because no matter what the lap time is, they are too slow in the turns and
too fast in the straights (or some variation thereof).  You are either
running into the back of them in the turns, or being blown away as they
accelerate out of them!  Is there a way to globally reduce the AI
acceleration rate......so you can get a better balance between turn speed
and straight acceleration (which should have an effect on limiting top
speed)?  My reasoning here is that if you can do this, then you could turn
the "strength slider" up to get the turn speeds "in the window" and then
limit the rate of acceleration until the laps times are what they should be.
Or, is this dreaming?

2.  What is it that makes them run into the back of you....as if you were
not on the track?  Is this a bug?  Is this adjustable with some ini tweak?
Is the AI "player car" detection programming based on the difference between
their speed on the "player's" car?  Do you have to be going some percentage
of their speed before they can "detect" your presence in front of them?

3.  This is what really gets me:  I can go out on the web and download just
about anything.......from "third party add-on" sites.....I want for N2K2.  I
can even get from fancy painted shift knobs and dashes to entire tracks to
engine sounds, to cute bird sounds!  All of that is nice, but those are
things that Papy does pretty well already.  However, the biggest "lacking"
of N2K2....and typical of most Papy sims over the last several
years.......is the crappy AI.  However, nobody is doing "add-on" AI work?
Heck, based on "need" you'd think there would be hundreds of sites and hacks
for this.....but I can't find a single one.  I don't understand, I guess?

Maybe the AI programming system is too complicated?  Maybe its too "funky"
and it can't be programmed to work properly?  What ever!  Papy....if you are
not going to put out a sim with the AI done well (and I don't have a problem
with you slacking off in this area - your MP is super - BUT!!!!!).....and
you are not going to "patch" this problem for N2K2 (and I don't think you
are).....could you at least put out a "white paper" on your AI programming
code.....so some of the talented people in this sim community can fix the AI
for you?  Please.....!!!!!!

Tom

If you want to see a sample of my lp files, try the Peoria, Nashville and
LaCrosse addon tracks. They all lack in one way or another, but IMO they are
generally better than Papy's.

Dave Boyle

There is alot out there but its not well organized. Your best bet is to surf
the Sierra boards. Alot of it is posted there kind of like how stuff for GPL
is posted at Race sim. Other than its usually a link to some freebie website
with pop ups from hell.

Keep in mind that since the patches whish improved the AI for the super
speedways came out the road course AI has suffered from those changes.

The mods I have played with don't really seem to do that much one way or
another, IMO. The saying :You can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear"
comes to mind.

MadDAWG

MadDAWG

...and remember that I'm still learning myself, heheh.

db

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

/Carl

<snip>

<snip>

Not sure if this link will take you directly to it

http://www.theuspits.com/fbody/nascar/n4.html#TRACK

But if not, it's in the Stockcar/N4/Tracks section

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

Tom, this sounds almost like an apology for driving against AI?!

If this continues, we not only need a therapy group for arcade fans, but
also one for single players, GP4 drivers and roof cam drivers... ;)

rec.autos.stupid.ai
rec.autos.gp4.is.a.sim
rec.autos.i.drive.on.top

l8er
ronny

How about:

rec.autos.offline.racing.***er

;0)

--
Joe Marques - RAORW Moderator

"Goy Larsen"
  Sure laugh all you want Goyster....but I've been busy....Fresh off my many
laps running the FIA Viper, (barely*** in the top ten still) I went
back to GPL.  Yup...now if you take away that silly - symbol some of the
Aliens have on gpl rank,  I'm almost on top of them.........

dave henrie
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Don't remember if I did or not.....but I do remember the last time I visited
that string....there was no information given I was looking for.  And I'm
not trying to be rude to you, but you don't provide information I'm looking
for in this post, either.  I'm assuming you don't include a link to your
site....because there isn't one.  That being said, I'm not looking to weed
through hundreds of lines of AI code, not understanding what I'm looking at.
I don't have time to become an AI code expert, I'm looking for someone who
is - to answer a few questions.  If you have written some kind of a
"tutorial" or have some notes on your own of what the entries do/mean and
where they are located (one .ini file, multiple .ini files?), I'd love to
take a look at that.

Short of that, can you tell me what line or code entries (or combination
thereof) alters the AI's rate of acceleration.  Is it a global setting, or
individual per track (or are there both)?  That would get me started with
what I want to experiment with.  That would be very helpful, thanks.

Regards,

Tom

You guys got me! ....lol...  It wasn't supposed to "sound like" an
apology.....it was an apology!  Well, kind of.......its not totally
necessary to apologize for running against the AI.......there are some good
lessons to learn in that process and if more people did it before venturing
online, that would be a safer racing place!  But, that's not the issue here.

Let me tell you how this got started, and why I used the phrase, "forced to
run against the AI."

I recently built a replica***pit of a WC race car.  This is a prototype
project, so I used dexion and plastic sheeting, with some purchased pre-fab
body parts.....this allowed me to design and build freely.  [The next one we
make will be made out of tube/welded steel and aluminum body panels).  I
used a combination of plans, measurements of actual WC cars, and had a group
of three guys who run GTA race cars in NASA (very similar to a WC car or
Busch car) come over regularly during the building process to give me advice
and suggestions for little "issues" that came up during the construction.
Once the***pit was operational, but not completed.......we sort of
stumbled into doing something that was really fun......and turned out to be
an excellent "training drill" for learning/practicing racecraft.  That was a
few months ago (the***pit should be 100% done this weekend - I'll post
some pics of it).  This has now grown into a group of about 30 local SCCA
and Russell Racing School drivers - about a half-dozen of which show up at
my house every Saturday night, for pizza and:  "Saturday Night Shootout"
racing (though, we had 18 drivers here two weeks ago).  Its now become so
popular we have to have pre-qualifying races at 5:00 pm to narrow the
night's competition to only four drivers (more than that doesn't work).

**Saturday Night Shootout** Rules/procedures (quick version):
    *We run five rounds per night with the only the top three drivers
advancing to round #5.
    *Round #1 is a speedway (usually Richmond), round #2 a road course,
round #3 is where ever the real Cup guys are racing on Sunday, round #4 is a
repeat race of track #3 and round #5 is usually Talladega or Daytona.
    *The races are all short - 5% and you get only 5 minutes practice, then
jump straight to the race starting in 16th position (against 15 AI cars).
    *We run full pace, no flags, full damage, realistic weather, and the
same setup (usually mine, but not always).
    *Scoring:  You get one point for each car you pass, 2 bonus points for a
top-10 finish, 4 bonus points for a top-5 finish, and 8 bonus points (for a
total of 14 bonus points) for a win.  Max you can score then, is 29 points
in one race (15 cars passed plus 14 bonus points).  All passes are "scored"
at the S/F line.
    * If a car you previously passed, passes you back - your race is over
right then.  You get credit for the cars you passed up to that point, less
the one who passed you back.
    * If you crash and can not otherwise finish the race (cross start finish
line at the checkered) you score zero points.  I.e., you must be running at
the checkered and not have been passed back by any cars.

I use a large screen TV, mounted on the ceiling above the***pit....so its
easy for the other guys to watch and score your race.

We usually have a couple big pizzas and plenty of beer for the
spectators.....lol.....the guys who are racing usually don't drink beer
until the night's competition is over.  These are real world racers and they
take the competition seriously now!  "Bragging rights" is your trophy for
the night's success......not messing up in front of your racing
buddies....is your motivation to do your best!

While this is an incredible amount of fun.....we've all agreed it is a huge
"racecraft" learning tool, as well.  I won't go into all the reasons
why.....most are obvious.  Not getting yourself into bad places during the
race (the ability to anticipate them and stay out of them) and making your
passes stick......are the two biggest ones.

So....that's what I meant by being "forced to run against the AI."  I tried
not doing this one Saturday night a few weeks back.  I had so many "pissing
and moaning" phone calls on Thursday and Friday........lol.......I
re-scheduled it.  I'm "locked" into this I think, now!  .......  Good thing
I'm not married or have anything else to do on Saturday night....lol...!!!

What we've all noticed is that the AI turn speeds are too low, while their
acceleration and resultant straight speeds are too high.....relative to the
lap time they turn.  I'm trying to work on adjusting this.....and coming up
with an AI slider setting for each track that is a good compromise.  I'm not
having lots of success with that.....and that's why I asked about the
settings for AI acceleration at each track.  This may not be practical, but
my thinking was if I could slow the AI rate of acceleration to a certain
degree (thus reducing their top end on the straight)....then I could adjust
the AI speed slider until their turn speeds were normal.....and the overall
lap time was in the window....of the real-world Cup cars.  Maybe that can't
be done....or maybe its not that simple?

Okay, so now you have the whole story.

Regards,

Tom

/Carl