rec.autos.simulators

I am starting this thread because I would like to talk about this from a
General point of view.   Not based on the incident in the thread before
this.

Personally, I like what Papy is trying to do, but I really do not like the
way they are executing it.

We have all had bad days while racing.  We have all made mistakes that if
someone of a neutral party looked at the replays, they may take it as
intentional wrecking.

I personally do not want to race under the "threat" of being banned for a
mistake.

The way they are approaching the matter right now is pure black and white.
The problem is, most incidents are not just black and white.  In most cases
it is someone trying to do one thing, the other trying to do something else
and unfortunately they clash.  The problem is, neither was trying to wreck
the other but I bet if you look at the replay it will definately look like
one persons fault.

Heck, just look at a real WC race.. last nights race for example.  There
were a whole bunch of accidents.  I forget who it was, but there was one
last night where they came out of turn 4 and one of the cars just drifted up
and punted the other in the back left of the car.  Do you think it was
intentional? Heck no, but it would sure look that way.

Now, as I said.. everyone makes mistakes.  However the constant execution of
those horrible mistakes is the problem.  That is why I truely believe there
should be some sort of warning system involved.

Maybe set it up so you get a warning the first time something like this
happens.  They can just put your CD-Key in a list and when you log on it
tells you that you have a warning.  If you go 30 days without any other
problem, it automatically removes you from that list.

If you have another problem within the 30 days "probation period" then you
are banned.   Maybe have it ban you for 30 days.  If after your CD-Key is
re-instated, if you are banned again, it is permanent

I know that some of you say "go buy another game".  Give me a break.  Sure,
I could afford to go out and buy another one, but not everyone can.  Try
looking at it from others view.  I have been poor enough in my life where I
could not even afford a color tv and where I had to s***together money to
go buy a loaf of bread.   Some people are not as well off as you are.  Do
not use the argument about "how did they get the computer"  Who knows, there
are a million ways.  Do not persume to know everyone elses situation.

We shouldn't jump to premature conclusions. Papy wouldn't ban people
lightheartedly, and they state this clearly enough in their report
guidelines.

Nobody knows how many reports Papy has rejected on the premises that the
facts aren't hard enough to ban the accused drivers. We've seen one case
that might have been debatable, although I personally think it wasn't, and
immediately there's an outcry that Papy bans drivers too lightheartedly. We
should have a little more confidence towards Papy who have shown time and
time again their determination to help and support their customers.

A small error margin remains, and we'll just have to live with that fact.
That's none different in real racing, or all other sports. A referee's
decisions aren't _always_ right, just most of the time. But this is how
things work.

I am apalled at the lack of support among the people whom Papy is trying to
do a favour by having started the anti-wrecker campaign.

We asked them to do it for us, they complied in a very careful and
resnsible way, and the first time someone who got banned accuses them of
having made a mistake we all start an uproar against the anti-wrecker
campaign we asked Papy to start for us instead of supporting them?
Especially since the guy in question seems to have lost a lot of his
credibility throughout the thread!?

Achim

It is not as simple as that.

Was this person warned?  Do you not think that someone should get a warning
or at least have Papy talk to them to find out their side of the story?

Like I said, I like what Papy is doing, I just think they could do it a bit
differently.

Whether Papy are fair in their decisions or not is not really the point,
IMO.

The real trouble is when someone reports an honest mistake by driver as
wrecking, because it looks like wrecking. The people at Papy can't know
everybody, so they have to take it at face value.

Suppose <insert racing buddy you've been racing with since the Hawaii days
here> causes a REALLY bad wreck. Moreover, it looks intentional. Would you
report him to Papy? -Of course you wouldn't. We all *know* <good ol' racing
buddy here>, right? He would never do such a thing on purpose.

Right, now suppose I was in that race instead. You don't know me, you've
never had me sitting on your gearbox for twenty laps, applying pressure yet
patiently waiting for an opportunity to pass. You don't know I would never
willingly chop someone's nose off. Suppose I caused that bad wreck by, I
don't know, spinning down to the inside off a corner, or having a car pop
into view as I'm trying to move up the track or whatever. Anyway, the whole
things blows up and I take out the top 6. It looks intentional.... would you
report me?

Sorry, but as it stands I'm not willing to take that risk. Which means I am
missing a piece of functionality just as much as that banned guy is.

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Do you really know all the details over his banning or are you basing it on
what he has told us only?
How many drivers, that you know are decent drivers, have been banned?
I personally would have to have all the facts in order to make a judgement,
and I doubt we'll ever know all the facts.

Don Burnette

I was the one that was banned...  of course I've bought a new game
now...

I like what they are doing regarding getting rid of wreckers..
HOWEVER... shouldn't the rating system they designed take care of
this?  Opps... maybe they need to work on that.

ALSO... I was racing as usual... no problems.. even in the race that I
got banned NO ONE called me a wrecker or said anything to me cause
lots of people wrecked that race.... then I log on a few days
later...and BANNED.  It's not fair to pay for a game and then have
them later decide to take part of it away when they feel like it.

They honestly cannot tell 100% whether it is intentional or not unless
the guy is parked on the track or going the other way.  I made contact
with one car... yes my fault...but no not intentional... and I was
banned.

I SERIOUSLY WARN all of you to NOT RACE IN A PAPY SERVER RACE... go in
the others and have fun... but why risk being banned whether you are a
wrecker OR THE BEST DRIVER IN THE WORLD... .   if the real nascar guys
like Dale Jr. got online to race...and wrecked someone, they would ban
him???

there's just too many thinks that CAN go wrong online... that's why
it's called ONLINE RACING!!! If you expect good drivers most the
time... that's why we form leagues right?  Banning entirely is just
not right for anyone...

(******* HERE IS AN EMAIL SOMEONE SENT ME IN REGARDS TO THIS ********)

here's an interesting email someone sent me:

When I purchased the N4 software, the license agreement states that it
is a "feature" of the software that enables me to drive on the sierra
network. It does not say it is a "privilege". It also makes no
statement that feature functionality of the product can/will be
removed based upon the "opinion" of someone else as it relates to my
driving ability or my driving judgement. If I bought a new car, and
Chevy removed the radio after three months because in their opinion,
they didn't like the fact I played Perry Como CD's, I would be rather
upset.

This brings up a second point. I am not the only one that uses my CD
key in my household. The game has feature functionality built into it
in the player area that allows you to set up more than one player. It
holds the sierra account info in this separate player.ini file.

In my house I have two kids that are both old enough and qualified
enough to drive online. Both are rather good, with better ratings and
LPI than I have. LOL. However, in their online sessions, if they get
deemed to have intentionally caused an incident, on THEIR account,
with THEIR player profile loaded, I think it is quite wrong to ban the
CD Key for all players. It is apparent that Sierra and Papy can
distinguish what player was logged on, I feel they should ban the
player account, not the CD. Also, If they are going to monitor PAPY
servers, they should ban only for PAPy servers.

With the current policy, I could be hosting on MY server, with MY
purchased CD Key, on MY network and still be banned because of someone
else's OPINION that I or someone in my household performed in a manner
that caused an incident online.

I think Papy and Seirra need to take another look at this policy.

With the way this is working, if Kevin Harvick
played Nascar 4 he would be kicked off for ever.
the way he boots everyone out of the way.

Makes sense.  I'm sure we've all seen replays that could have been looked at as
intentional, even when they're not.
There are the facts as I understand them:
1. Someone has to actually *report* you to Papy.  Meaning, they don't lurk and
monitor.  
2. If they agree that the wreck was intentional, you're banned.  Can't login to
WON anymore.  Sure, you can still run direct connect.  But if everyone else is
still on WON, you're basically SOL - no one to race with.  That being the case,
now you don't *really* have the multiplayer feature available in usable form.
That opens a whole NEW argument<g>.

Ok, now a few questions(sorry, I haven't been online to check the procedures):
Does the person who reports you HAVE to be the person involved?  Meaning, I see
a wreck in front of me that I think was intentional.  I report it, even though
it didn't affect me personally.
How does the reporting work?  Someone says "Today, at 5:30pm in x race on x
server, lap 20, this incident occured"?  Then, the moderator scans the replay
of that particular race?  Or does the person making the report send the replay
in question to an e-mail address for review?  Does the person accused get to
find out who reported them?
If you just send a replay, I see a BIG problem.  I'm sure most of us have
replays saved of various online races.  Here's a hypothetical situation.  I'm
in a league, 2nd in the standings.  I want to use every possible option to win.
 I know of a fun race where we were screwing around, testing the crash
dynamics, playing demo derby, or whatever.  That replay shows the points leader
deliberately wrecking someone.  I send that replay to Papy saying, "This guy is
a menace!  Take a look at this!"  The driver gets banned(because Papy has no
way of knowing these wrecks were all in fun), I win the championship because he
can no longer compete on WON(where the races are held), and he never knows who
reported him.  Since there isn't an 'appeal' process, and the banning currently
seems to be permanent, he now has a game that is useless for multiplayer.

Given my 'assumptions', does anyone else think this scenario could happen?

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

He does play N4....or maybe I should say, he did.  Probably has had his CD
banned by now :-)

Don as stated, I am not basing this on the thread up above, I am talking in
general.

I just do not like the idea of no warning, you are banned... especially
without getting the other guys side of it

I dont wish to comment on your assumptions, its prob better if you read this
http://www.papy.com/html/n4_wrecking.htm .

Yes

No, Papy uses server replays.

Not by the sounds of it.

It could. :)

----------------
Skotty Flynn
http://www.nascar-racing-sims.com

I would LOVE to know if there has been anyone reported that papy HAS
NOT ruled intentional and not banned them.

they prob. get and email and just ban away...thinking "he'll go buy
our game again woo hoo!"

BH