rec.autos.simulators

1) N2000 doesn't exist anymore, it's N3 now ;)
2) It's not based on the GPL game engine, so people care less
3) We have GPL, so anything less is irrelevant for us mostly ;)
4) Papyrus thinks N3 is something out of National secret, compared to other
companies who offer plenty of screenshots, videos, sounds, previews, PR,
etc.. (hmm Motorsims, Europress and Microprose for GP500)

I just don't understand that in a period where Papyrus could very fast (with
the upcoming 4-5 real sims (not using an 6+year old game engine) loose the
#1 spot as leader of the racing simulation market, they do not promote their
titles.  IMHO having little marketing experience they should, because I know
many who will already buy those other sims instead of Papyrus ones, just
because of the information on the net).  Maybe they fear us, oh well :(

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Only for you Euro or Canadian guys...

I'd love to see more info about it, especially since we're getting
relatively close to the most recently announced release date of
"sometime in October".

Because *Sierra* is responsible for promoting Papy's titles, not Papy,
and I don't think Papy is in any immediate danger of losing their #1 spot
as leader of the racing sim market.  Hell, they have the best selling
racing sim ever (Nascar Racing 2), and GPL in their product lineup.

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12)
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Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting)
  http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html
Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2
  http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html
North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition
  http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html
Super X Philes
  http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
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=========================================================

I'm going to buy it anyway. I'm really looking forward to race ovals
multiplayer.

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove spam when replying

<yawn> Nascar, boring. But oh well.  As its been stated a million times
before, its not really the new physics that appear in GPL that makes the
cars so hard to drive, its the 67 GP cars themselves.  A lot of horsepower
in relatively light chassises, with tires that were extremely hard and had
limited grip (great brakes though, but its the tires that were again the
sore point and lead to loss of braking power), and absolutely no
aerodynamics to speak off.  Now, contrast that with a beast of a Nascar with
about 300-400hp more, the latest in aerodynamics to glue it to the road,
modern tire technology for both traction and braking power, etc and they are
totally different animals.  The physics is just going to make the "feel" of
what the car does more real, not necessarily make it harder to drive.

Heh?  Sorry, not all Americans are diehard Nascar racing fans so it'd be
much appreciated if you don't make such sweeping generalizations.

If you believe the latter, then you haven't been paying much attention to
whats going on in the computer racing world.  Motorsims is gearing up to
produce two very viable simulations and Microprose is bringing out GP500 and
GP3.  Yet, all Papyrus is doing is revamping an old game with some new
technology?

Once again, a misconception about the GPL physics engine being used for a
NASCAR.  Well, by the physics engine, we don't mean that a stock car will
handle like a 1967 GP car.  We don't mean that it will flip over if you touch
wheels or some other highly unlikely situation.  But that it will have 3d
physics like those used in GPL to simulate the handling of a 3000 pound Winston
Cup stock car with roughly 700 horsepower.  Those 3d physics will enhance the
realism to the extreme with every little factor used, such as suspension
travel, body roll, and other things you can't simulate in a 2 dimensional
environment.

Thank you for the rash generalization...  I am in "NASCAR country", living in
Kentucky, yet I still I am not a diehard NASCAR fan.  I actualy prefer the CART
series anyday over NASCAR.  But, I'll take what realistic racing sim I can get
pretty much.  And well, Grand Prix Legends is my favorite sim of all time so
far.  Not because I used to watch racing in the 60s, hell, I wasn't even alive
then, but because of how much fun it is to race those cars on the edge!  Also,
by playing GPL, I have gained a respect for the old GPs and the drivers.

Dan Belcher
Team Racing Unlimited

Really ? You checked out the Nascar boards in the past few months ? Im sorry
but many people simply do not care much for the addition of N3, and learned
their lesson from NR99 on that aspect.  Those are the people who all saw the
N3 movie and what could be possible with those cars.  They are not stupid.
You should really check what those people say on webboards instead of saying
this, IMHO.  Also,  the Z-axis in racing is part of the deal, accept it.  If
you flip well it's because of laws of physics.  Don't be scared about it,
it's a reality.  But it's not the point that we care.  We want the superior
physics in GPL, not for the flips, but for the physics itself.  The car
loading into the corners, suspension working through the corners, touching
the curbs, etc...   Because a GPL car is not a stock-car.  If the situation
appears in reality where it should flip, I do not see the problem with the
same thing happening in it's simulation.

I know many of us (hmm like me), who will just download a replay, and still
drool after all those months with GPL ;-D

No.  Im talking about rec.autos.simulators here.  Americans in this
newsgroup are included, and if you look at the global opinion of this
newsgroup GPL  is the only sim we actually care at the moment.

Sure, I know it's Sierra.  But that doesn't mean they can promote themselves
the products.  I don't see why people like Mr. Matson don't involve
themselves a little more here about N3.  You do not need Sierra's marketing
approval for every message on this newsgroup, or screenshot you post on the
website IMHO.  Papyrus has their own marketing staff I guess ?

Let's see ahead :

Motorsims AMA Superbike
Motorsims CAN-AM
Europress Rally Championship
Microprose Gp500
Microprose Grand Prix 3
Papyrus Nascar Racing 3
Papyrus Legends of Nascar

I really do think that end of 99/start of 2000 will be a big challenge for
Papyrus.  Because if they ever have lower than expected sales for their two
Nascar license software on the shelves, it will affect alot the next
products they will do, since we all know it's their cash cow.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Do you mean a NASCAR car?

It is NASCAR...not Nascar.

did they change plans? from the first hint of N3, i thought it was going to use
the GPL programming - physics model, graphics engine, etc. have they gone to
something else now or was it ever based on the GPL engine? personally, i've been
absolutely giddy about the use of the GPL physics from the first 10 seconds of
running GPL....  and i can't wait to do a Rusty Wallace tumble down the back
stretch of 'dega.....  same model doesn't mean that the stock cars are going to
act like gp cars, they should act as much like a stock car as the GPL cars act
like gp's  if that makes any sense....   if they've come up with a better engine
than GPL, great, but if they've gone back to the N2 engine, i think it's gonna
suffer..... BADLY....    not knocking the N2 engine, but there's no need for
another update to N2.....

i haven't checked it out yet, but there is supposed to be quite a bit of info
and screenshots available at www.papyrus.com - there is a little bit and a few
screenshots also at http://www.racesimcentral.net/, it looks
good.... the in-car view is a very welcome change -

bottom line, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that they don't***up what has
sounded from the beginning like the last NASCAR sim i'll need....

John Simmons wrote

    I've been waiting anxiously for almost 2 years for the chance to do a
Rusty Wallace type flip through the tri-oval at Taledega running over
200mph. Ever since GPL was announced N2 has seemed ancient. Now that GPL is
a reality, and supports FF, I find it depressing to remove my fancy digital
wheel in order to run N2 for my weekly league race.
    N3 isn't good news to me at all, it's just one more roadblock between us
and the "real" Nascar sim that Papy has been promising. The better N3 sells
the longer it will be before Sierra gives in and allows Papy to do another
real Sim. The big problem is that Sierra could care less about what the
readers of this newsgroup think I'm afraid, they want Papy to make "games"
for the general public. We sim fanatics are just too small of a market
share. Nascar fans number in the millions and most of them don't give a darn
about realism.

Good reply John, and I agree as well.
I do enjoy GPL, but I'll take Nascar over it any day of the week. And based
upon the lackluster sales of GPL, I'd say there are many folks that feel the
same way.
--
Don Burnette
Dburn on Ten
http://members.home.net/d.burnette/Sportsman%204.htm

I never once mentioned the difficulty of the sim - I merely pointed out
the unrealistic way thecollision detection system, combined with the
physics engine, produce unrealistic results in terms of a given cars
motion and orientation to the plane of the racing surface.

Work on your reading comprehension skills...

Again, I never said that all Americans are diehard Nascar fans.  I was
indicating that CART/IRL/Grand Prix racing was of more importance to the
guys from countries where those series' are promoted.  For the most part,
Americans are more accepting of Nascar than CART/IRL, simply bbecause the
series is based and run in the states.  

Work on your reading comprehension skills...

First, Papy's Nascar Racing series of sims *is* the best selling racing
sim to ever be produced - that can't be denied by anyone.  Second, any
software that's not on the shelves is nothing but rumor and vaporware.  
Lastly learned a couple of valuable lessons from N2 and GPL.  

N2 taught them that Nascar sim drivers want 43-car fields and accurately
modeled tracks. They wanted to address these issues.

GPL taught them that the burden suffered by the CPU when dealing with the
physics models of 20 cars was already taxing most systems (online driving
notwithstanding).  Doubling the number of cars under those conditions
would overwhelm most users' systems that are currently in use today.

I applaud their decision, and I think that the lure of 40-car fields
online will be enough for most Nascar sim drivers to forgive the
exclusion of an entirely new and complicated physics model.  Besides
that, it was a good *business* decision.  If the sim doesn't run worth a
damn on a typical system, nobody will buy it, and it will suffer the same
fate as GPL.

Open your eyes and smell the coffee.  Better yet, try using your head for
something more than parroting the anti-Papy rhetoric because you can't
think of anything new or informative to say.

There is one thing I wish for - Papy should be more forthcoming with
details about what they're doing so that these kinds of dicussions don't
get a chance to gain any sort of momentum.  We're all sitting here
pounding on each other about what Papy might or might not do, or how they
should or should not think, and whether or not N3 will be worth the price
of admission.  It's a waste of ***in time for everyone involved.

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12)
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting)
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Super X Philes
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

Yes, they decided to continue with the almost 7year old game engine (from
IndyCar Racing 1).  The Nascar title that will use the GPL game engine and
physic model will be after, hopefully N4.

The screenshots at the last URL you showed me was from the real N3 we all
want, now N4.  Unfortunately, the *** business is like that.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Collision detection system in GPL isn't the best, but it wasn't all that
great in N2 either.  I have yet to figure out your exact point here
considering that GPL does a very good job of simulating the orientatin of
car to the plane of the racing surface.  Its when it ends up interacting
with other cars or "solid" objects roadside it runs into problems.
Obviously you have not spent much time with GPL or you would realize that it
does do a very good job, outside the collision of two or more objects when
it does some funny stuff.  If you take and replay a long race and watch the
suspension and tires its a very nice ballet that you can feel.

I wasn't the only one that "read between the lines" with that statement.
CART and IRL ARE promoted here, unless you live in a rathole or something.
In fact, I see or hear more CART commercials and advertising in Chicago than
I do any Nascar.

Let me see.  Where does the IRL run?  All the races are in the United
States.  Where does CART run?  All the races but 5 races (Japan, Brazil,
Toronto, Vancouver and Australia) are run in the United States.  Oh well,
and next its a possibility that another race will be held in either Germany
(oval) or Mexico (road course) next year for CART.

Maybe a good portion of Americans are more accepting of Nascar, but to
allude that GPL (or any open-wheeler) is only relevant to Canadians or
Europeans is rather dull.

Work on your basic understanding of the world skills, geesh.

Got the figures for that?  And where is it the best selling racing sim?  In
the US? North America? Europe? Australia?  Japan?

Yeah, Papyrus/Sierra learned a valuable lesson.  That they can repeatedly
sell a slightly upgraded Nascar racing game to the redneck Nascar fans (my
apologies to any Nascar fans who are neither rednecks or rednecks that
aren't morons).

Ok then, N3 is even more vaporware than any of the other forementioned
titles.  People outside the developer/publishing companies developing said
titles have SEEN these games.  It seems that know one outside of Papyrus has
really seen N3 at all.

Who doesn't want accurately modeled tracks?  Work on your reading
comprehension skills.  Go check out deja-news and see how often a "supposed
simulation" is critizied for not having accurate tracks.

Yes, so what?  Lots of folks upgraded computers to play GPL.  A very large
majority upgraded for N2 so they could play it better on NROS.  ICR1, N1,
ICR2, N2 and GPL all pushed the systems when they were released.  Now we get
NR99 and N3 developed just so they will run on today's systems with ease?
Bah.

Sorry, you won't get 40-car online fields, not at this point.  24 cars is
still the limit on NROS and it has a much smaller bandwidth requirement than
GPL and is running on dedicated servers.  You might be able to get 40-car
fields and higher end machines (not on P200s) for off-line racing.

Lets see, the GPL selling was dicussed over and over again.  And I'll point
you all the back to the first paragraph you responded to.  GPL is tough
because of the 67 Grand Prix cars is models.  Its not necessarily tough
because of the physics system used.  In fact, the physics system most likely
made it EASIER to drive these cars since they require that you have the most
feedback you can get or represent in a video/audio/FF(heh) system that is
our computers nowadays.

Not to mention, its most people's contention on this newsgroup and probably
elsewhere that it didn't sell particularly well because there isn't a large
body of mainstream people who are really interested in 1967 GP (Formula1)
racing these days.  I'll bet that the retro Nascar Legends doesn't
necessarily sell all that well either.  Put Nascar packaging on the box, or
even 1999 Formula 1 or CART or sports car racing that 1999 people can
identify with and it sells much better.

The majority of people buying games are complesive buyers.  They don't
necessarily go out and get *** mags, or read online *** mags, or visit
newsgroups to find out what the game is like or how it fairs in reviews,
etc.

Who says I'm anti-Papyrus?  Actually, I'm not.  Randy and Dave are excellent
programmers, great gamers and real advocates of racing of all stripes.  Mr
Matsen is also a great guy.  Wouldn't mind getting a GPL box signed by them.
But nonetheless, I am not solely "IF IT AINT PAPYRUS IT AINT WORTH ***AND
ITS VAPORWARE".  If some other developer comes out with a better Nascar
game, or 67 F1 game or Rally game or what not, so be it.  There are lots of
other people, developers and artists, etc, that are as interested in
bringing racing to your computer.  Not everyone does it as well as the
Papyrus team, but nonetheless.

And btw, buddy.  You have yet to say ANYTHING that has any redeeming value.
Or any arguement that hasn't already been said and hashed over.  In fact, I
will admit to reinforming you of opinions and arguements that have been had
over at least the last 6 months on this newsgroup.  Try dejanews and scan
the old articles.

I don't think there isn't a person on the group that wouldn't agree with you
on this point.  But that may be more Sierra's policy than Papyrus'.

As evidenced by the responses and the flavor of the newsgroup, not everyone
cares if N3 comes out or not.