rec.autos.simulators

Sure it is, for a vast number of individual games. Similiarly, other
cards/software standards are king of the hill for other individual
games.

On the contrary, rather than looking at "any given game", one needs to
look at the games they personally want to play. Who cares what NHL '98
or CPR looks like if all you want to play is ICR2? Similarly, who
cares how ICR2 on Rendition looks if Quake is your taste...

Hmm, "to claim other[than what I believe] is simply religious" sounds
religious to me. :-)

---Jim

be only slightly faster in D3D. >>

Check out:  http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/3dcards2/ss02d.html

If a 40% faster frame rate in a game like Terracide (a popular game for
Direct3D benchmarking) is just a "slight" increase in speed, I guess its just
slightly faster.  But 42 fps compared to 30fps is not insignificant.  Secondly,
if you add AGP to the mix, it becomes an absolute blowout.  Is there a 3DFX AGP
board out yet?

with a 3dfx, >>

When I see games I really want to have that ONLY run on a 3DFX, I'll consider
buying one.  During the last 12-18 months some games have come out that are
3DFX only, but that's changing as more companies are realizing that 3DFX-only
is NOT the way to go.  Consider that many OEM's such as giants Dell and
Gateway, are putting STB Velocity 128's into their systems, and not 3DFX
boards.  That's a huge market of people who are going to get these boards WITH
their systems.  Software makers are not ignoring this, and are thus supporting
Direct3D.   EA and Sierra went different directions.  Sierra bet on Rendition,
and EA bet on 3DFX (which is why the titles you listed are EA titles).
However, even EA is releasing new games with Direct3D support, such as Andretti
Racing.   They realize that 3DFX only is just going to prevent them from
reaching a growing percentage of gamers.

A drop in the bucket compared to the Direct3D support out there.

ignorant. >>

12 months ago, I'd probably have agreed with you, but today your position is
out of step with reality.

mantra? Given that the speed win of these boards is marginal at best
(and usually achieved with a quality sacrifice), >>

As if there are no sacrifices with a 3DFX board?  How about 3D acceleration in
a window?  Higher resolutions than 640x480 which are often either not supported
by 3DFX or witness big performance degradation?  

choice. >>

There are plenty of other rational choices.   3DFX got some games during the
last year because it was the only really fast card on the block.  Now that its
got competition and reviews are no longer blindly saying "buy a 3DFX" and large
OEM's are shipping out tons of boards based upon different chipsets, its no
longer rational to pretend that 3DFX is the only way to go.  Besides, most of
the competitors for 3DFX are 2d/3d board combos with expansion ports, so if the
Voodoo or Voodoo2 are required, that's what the expansion port on those cards
is for.  Its hardly a dead-end purchase if you can drop a Monster3D in at any
time and not lose a bit.  After comparing Direct3D games on my STB AGP Velocity
128 to the 3DFX board I have, the 3DFX board now sits on the shelf.

can't counter an argument with logic, at least have the courage to admit it and
take it like a man. >>

Oh...now THERE is a winner of an argument "Take it like a man" (said in deep
manly man voice).  Get over it.  The original post I replied to claimed that
the 3DFX was still the performance king and I pointed out that was wrong.
Rather than admit I was right about that, suddenly the argument shifts and its
"oh, well the Riva 128 only SLIGHTLY wins" (which is also often false), so now
we're talking degrees of loss for 3DFX instead of whether or not its the
fastest.  The reality of the situation is as follows:

1. There are new boards out there that are as fast or faster than the 3DFX.
2. They are shipping in large volume thanks to OEM deals.
3.  They support Direct3D and outrun the 3DFX in Direct3D
4.  There are more Direct3D games out there, by far, than there are 3DFX only
games.
5.  The rate of growth of Direct3D growth exceeds that of the growth of 3DFX
only games -- by far.
6.  Companies which WERE declaring loyalty to 3DFX are now doing Direct3D
versions of the same games.
7.  The Voodoo 2 is NOT OUT.  When it is, it becomes a candidate for this
discussion, and not before.
8.  The Monster 3D is an add-on board, so its hardly a dead end (or
"irrational") to buy a 2D/3D board with an expansion connector in case there's
a "gotta have it" 3DFX-only game.
9.  Many of the boards that now outperform the 3DFX chipset are also
considerably cheaper and add 2D support, support for higher resolutions, 3D
acceleration in a window, etc.

There's absolutely nothing irrational about passing on the 3DFX chipset and
getting one of the faster 2D/3D solutions, at least until Voodoo 2 comes out,
at which point it might be worthwhile to switch to that (depending upon its
price point, compatibility, etc)

Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

religious to me. :-)>>

I'm not saying that the board *I* happen to own is the best board.   I'm saying
that buying a 3DFX is no longer a slam-dunk, and that the people who are
looking down their noses  at non-3DFX owners are doing so more because of their
loyalty to 3DFX than continued technical superiority.

I own a Stealth II, a Riva 128, and I have access to a 3DFX board.  Right now
its the Riva that's in my system because it flat out runs circles around the
other two boards. Its also AGP and I'm sure that has something to do with it.
I'm not advocating any particular board, or even saying people shouldn't buy a
3DFX.  I'm just saying that pretending there is only one reasonable choice in
3D boards is NOT the product of purely rational thought anymore.  Maybe a year
ago, but not now.

Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

It's MORE true today than ever, because of the increasing support of
the Glide API by the smartest developers (i.e. the ones who want to
produce the highest quality software possible).

There are not. You keep ignoring the software-support issue, and your
conclusion is based in denying the reality of Glide API support.
You've provided no rational counter-argument, just this denial of
reality - sounds like you're the one with religion.

Joe

number) of Glide games have been released in the last two months: LongBow2,
NHL98, NBA 98, Need for Speed 2 SE, etc.>>

3 of the 4 you mention are EA titles.  I don't know about Longbow.  So
basically you just keep repeating title names from the same vendor (a vendor
which nonetheless made Andretti Racing work with Direct3D and Madden work with
DirectX, as does NHL 98)

Glide API by the smartest developers (i.e. the ones who want to produce the
highest quality software possible).>>

ROFL!  Lets see...anyone who writes to Glide is "smart".  Does that mean that
anyone who writes to Direct3D is "dumb"?  

conclusion is based in denying the reality of Glide API support. You've
provided no rational counter-argument, just this denial of reality - sounds
like you're the one with religion. >>

 Sorry, I just don't see it.  I see game after game with DirectX or Direct3D
support, and only a fraction of them with 3DFX "ONLY" support.  You're
obviously looking at a different market than I am

Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

Joe

Make it 4 for 4.  EA also makes LongBow..just checked.  Yes I would like the
list so I can compare it to what's currently the best selling set of games in
each category.  Shall I also reply with a complete list of Direct3D games?! :)

Btw, Final Reality has a great looking benchmark program that has some
game-simulated environments.  The Viper 330 and the Elsa board fared very well
there, beating the Monster 3D in 3D performance by up to a 40% margin.

Randy

Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

Let me follow up on that some more:

Going to EA's site for Longbow 2 you see a FAQ which says:

Q: Will you support 3-D hardware acceleration?
A:  The graphics engine will fully support 3DFX graphics accelerators
(compatibility with other accelerators is still being determined).

That hardly sounds like its a closed case for 3DFX.  Yes, 3DFX is first for EA
(they have really latched onto it), but they have NOT closed their minds to
other boards, as many 3DFX users have.  It won't surprise me at all to see a
Direct3D patch up there, and it'll undoubtedly run very fast on the Riva 128's.

Go ahead and send me your list of all these exclusive 3DFX games.  I'll bet if
I visit their web sites, most of them either also offer Direct3D or will be
offering it soon as an update.

Randy

Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

Hmm, that's dissapointing. I was a big fan of the original Longbow. Funny,
I saw Longbow 2 in the stores today, looked like it was available to all.
--
Don Burnette
I-65 Racing
Dburn on Ten

If you want to run almost everything, and don't mind that the
performance is going to be less than the best in Direct3D, a 3DFX is a
fine choice, but its not the only choice.

I go to game site after game site and I see that a lot of the
companies that did put out 3DFX specific versions have either
delivered or are in the process of delivering a Direct3D version as
well, and for some games the Direct3D version precedes or prevents the
3DFX version.

Randy

Depends.  The Voodoo 2 is likely going to cost over $200 when it
ships, compared to the current boards which are far less.  Not to
mention the fact that you could get a 2D/3D board now and buy a Voodoo
2 for its expansion port early next year if so warranted.  That's
probably what I'll do.  I see no reason to tack a Monster 3D onto the
Riva right now.  I'd just have to toss it out for the Voodoo 2.

Randy

Randy

The picture quality on the Rendition Verite chips is MUCH better than that of
any 3dfx or riva 128 chips!!!  Anyone with both can surely attest to this.

Loren
Team SAVATS