rec.autos.simulators

% Joe,

% You_are_correct - there are some features unique to the 3Dfx hardware that
% cannot be accessed using DirectX5 - none that are useful to CPR I might add.

% However, the next generation of DirectX, I am assured, will address the
% double-pass rendering and the other last couple of items.

% The performance issue I stand by - why? Because we just spent 3 weeks and
% $$$ on doing the glide port
% so we know what we're talking about. This is not secondhand info - we did
% the numbers. I have the two versions in front of me right now - we did the
% port because WE thought it might buy us some performance. It didn't - end of
% story (yeah, right).

% So I don't expect for one minute for anyone to support/approve or even
% believe this data - but so what? We did the work, we have the data, that's
% all I need.

% We wouldn't have even done the Glide port if we were so set against it.

% My job is to make CPR (and Flight Sim and Monster Truck and X, Y and Z tba)
% the best Sims they can be - not to make D3D look good if it isn't.

% I don't work in the Systems group - I work in the Games group - I run the
% Simulations business for Microsoft - if my products stiff because I made bad
% technology choices then it's my profitability - and ultimately my head.

% There it is - I have been (painfully) honest on this NG so far and I do not
% intend to start changing that now.

I would like to thank you for your presence here in r.a.s. (a somewhat
wild and wooly Old West shoot-out zone at times).  I also believe you
have been honest with the group.  At times however, I think you have
been too involved in spin control (understandably) and in doing so
appear to avoid or dismiss certain problems people have been having with
your product.  With that said, keep it up.  I look forward to your patch
in the hopes that the promise seen in CPR can actually be delivered.  At
times I think it appears that the avid (or sometimes rabid) posters in
r.a.s. are out to "poison" the well.  But, in truth I think they are
looking and striving for the same thing you and your development team
are, an excellent CART simulation.  Just understand, we are the hardened
sim junkies and the "new drug" on the market needs-must be stronger and
better than anything we've already pumped into our system.  We are
finely tuned to what makes or breaks a sim-drug, and as soon as our
"systems" detect something amiss we howl like a junkie in withdrawl.
Just remember, we really do want your product to be the best it can be,
and that is mainly why we complain so much.

Thanks again for sticking your neck (and sanity) on the line and
contributing here in r.a.s.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Cheers!
John

Does microsoft have any plans to ever fix the probs win95 has with
memory such as swapping memory out to disk when not necesary(causing
pauses in gameplay)? Win95 sometimes swaps to disk even though it doesnt
need to sometimes this is a known bug to advanced users.

Question for the Systems guys not the Games guys - sorry.

following a hardware company?

No to the 13 year old part.  Religion knows no age.

for technical reasons...

Now *this* is nonsense.  "purely for technical reasons" you'd buy the fastest
board available and right now that's cards like the Riva 128, whose native API
*IS* Direct3D, or one of the new Stealths.  (And if you really want to get it
right you'll go AGP and turn a mild performance improvement into an absolute
rout)  Of course, all that changes when the Voodoo 2 is finally released at
whatever high price point 3DFX will charge, but in terms of "right now" as you
put it, 3DFX is no longer king of the hill.  
The only way you could argue that it is, is if you compare a fast Glide program
to a Direct3D program and find the Glide program to win out, but whether its
"the right thing" or not, the standard is Direct3D right now, not Glide, and
with so many titles coming out supporting Direct3D and only one of the native
API's (take your pick), the only SMART choice is to buy the board which is
going to have the best chance to run any given game and run it the fastest.
That is NOT the current 3DFX Voodoo chipset anymore.  To claim otherwise is
simply religious.

Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

Sorry, but the NUMBER ONE technical capability of hardware is what
software it can run. Furthermore, the RIVA's and Stealths are just
*beginning* to catch up to VooDoo1, over a year after it's release.
Voodoo2 will kick their asses all over the place for another year.
That, combined with the fact that many great games only run on 3dfx
cards, makes the original poster's statement exactly right - buying
anything other than Voodoo right now is an ignorant choice.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for someone who buys a non-3dfx card and
then whines that half the games won't run on it. It's not religion,
just the basic common sense rules of hardware acquisition.

Only if you ignore existing software support (which would be a very
ignorant way to choose a piece of hardware).

There you go, by your own standards that's obviously 3dfx, if you want
to run "any given game". Say, like LongBow2 for example. Or NFS2SE, or
any EA Sports title, or JetFighter 3, etc., etc. Getting the point
yet?

Joe

I was thinking about getting this and even for newgroups and their negative
tone, the bad responses surprised me. The demo looks ok, but frame rate is
lousy ala monster truck.

I have other direct3d games that fly. I am assuming those use native
rendition code under d3d. Are there plans to add 3dfx and/or rendition
native hooks to improve the rate?

I also didn't see tire temp  measurements... am I missing something there? I
see your list of fixes but being new, I am not sure what some mean... ie I
heard that you can't drive in/out of the pits or the pace lap!! Is that what
the auto-pilot fix is (getting rid of those?)

I am surprised to see a direct response here on a non ms newsgroup, which is
great. Especially if the patch is timely. I'll buy it if so. But I'm not
falling for buying a game and waiting for the patch that should have been
release 1, seems like 1997 was the year for that!

Rick

it can run. Furthermore, the RIVA's and Stealths are just *beginning* to catch
up to VooDoo1, over a year after it's release.>>

Your data is inaccurate.  The Voodoo one has been soundly beat by Riva in every
benchmark I've seen, and I've seen a bunch.

Where is it NOW?  Do you have a Voodoo2?  Do you know how much one costs?  What
games use its new capabilities?  The ole phrase "voodoo will kick their asses"
is the tired old line which betrays you as a blindly loyal 3DFX zealot.  They
can talk about the Voodoo 3 and you'll just trumpet away.

How many games run *only* on 3DFX cards?  Can you name some of the top selling
games that run only on the 3DFX cards?  Take the CGW top 10 in each category.
How many of them are 3DFX only?

<< makes the original poster's statement exactly right - buying
anything other than Voodoo right now is an ignorant choice.  >>

Not if you play NASCAR 2, or if you play  SODA, or if you play any other game
that doesn't support 3DFX.  Sorry, but head to head Voodoo is no longer the
technological leader.  Voodoo2 will probably be that, but its not out right
now.  The only ignorance I see being displayed here is the blind 3DFX loyalty
that says buy a Voodoo now and lets bury our head in the sand about the fact
that there are now faster boards on the market.

whines that half the games won't run on it. It's not religion, just the basic
common sense rules of hardware acquisition. >>

No, its religion.  You're deluding yourself if you think there is a
sufficiently large # of 3DFX only games to warrant buying one irrespective of
any technical advantage another board has over it.

way to choose a piece of hardware).

Please.  As I said, I look forward to seeing your #'s on how many of the top 10
selling PC titles in each category are 3DFX only.

"any given game".  Say, like LongBow2 for example. Or NFS2SE, or any EA Sports
title, or JetFighter 3, etc., etc. Getting the point yet? <<

Those games run just fine on my Riva 128.  

Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

something kinda like:

Gotta disagree here.  One of the fundamental mistakes is to purchase
hardware based solely upon its specs.  You buy the hardware that most
effectively lets you run the broadest range of software you want to
run.  It is a common mistake to buy hardware based on specs, then be
limited in the software you can run.  20 years of personal computing
and many mistakes have taught me that lesson.  Remember the GUS
soundcard of a few years ago <g>?

One has to look at the software today when buy hardware today.  Today,
3Dfx is the winner.  3Dfx can run the hottest software around, such as
Longbow 2, NHL98, and several others that are 3Dfx optimized, as well
as any D3D software.

Will that change to some other card in the future (and what will it
be)?  Maybe.  But the time to buy something else is in the future,
when the change has been made, not today.  Today the 3Dfx cards are
the easy winners.

fwiw,

jeff lackey

At last count, about 40-50. Dozens more in development (hundreds, some
people say, but I'm skeptical).

LongBow2, Need For Speed 2 SE, NHL 98, Jetfighter 3.

That's a list about 2-3 games long. Compared to 40-50 that you can
only run with a 3dfx, and dozens more in development. In light of this
choosing a non-voodoo card can only be described as ignorant.

Speaking of blind ignorance, why do you keep repeating this irrelavent
mantra? Given that the speed win of these boards is marginal at best
(and usually achieved with a quality sacrifice), and given all these
great 3dfx-only games, there is NO other rational choice.

Blah blah blah ... you keep saying this as if it has any meaning. If
you can't counter an argument with logic, at least have the courage to
admit it and take it like a man.

Joe

But it doesn't run D3D software all that great, in my opinion.  And
D3D is the common denominator.  The people at nVidia recognized this
and made Direct3D *THE* native API for Riva 128.  Riva  128 was
designed and built FOR Direct3D (If you read their FAQ anyway).  I can
pretty safely bet that there are more D3D games out there than any
native API, so if you have the hottest D3D board, you're not going to
lose out.  Any publisher today would be nuts not to support D3D,
because, technical issues notwithstanding, its the one thing
Rendition, nVidia, and 3DFX all run on.

Randy

Cheers!
John

l8er
ronny

--
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   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
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WE, are BORG. YOU, will be ASSIMILATED (if your worthy). RESISTANCE, is
FUTILE.

: >> Sorry, but the NUMBER ONE technical capability of hardware is what software
: it can run. Furthermore, the RIVA's and Stealths are just *beginning* to catch
: up to VooDoo1, over a year after it's release.>>

: Your data is inaccurate.  The Voodoo one has been soundly beat by Riva in every
: benchmark I've seen, and I've seen a bunch.

I do have to say, it's interesting how you conveniently chopped the part
mentioning the fact you are comparing new cards to something that is a
year old.  It is ok to compare voodoo2 (early tests) to the precious Riva
128.

: >> Voodoo2 will kick their asses all over the place for another year.

: Where is it NOW?  Do you have a Voodoo2?  Do you know how much one costs?  What
: games use its new capabilities?  The ole phrase "voodoo will kick their asses"
: is the tired old line which betrays you as a blindly loyal 3DFX zealot.  They
: can talk about the Voodoo 3 and you'll just trumpet away.

Last we heard it was due 1st quarter 98 which isn't that far off and if
someone is thinking about buying a 3d card, is it so wrong to mention this
and possibly wait until it is out instead of spending the money now on
something that will be inferior?