rec.autos.simulators

Please, reference this letter:

Alston & Bird
One Atlantic Center
1201 West Peachtree Street
Atlanta, GA 30309-3424

Martin J. Elgison

May 29, 1996

Mr. Tim Wortman
Decatur, IL

   Re: NASSCAR

Dear Mr. Wortman,

We are in receipt of your letter of May 12, 1996 regarding your
NASSCAR website. We thank you for your willingness to cooperate with
Nascar in its endeavor to protect the NASCAR trademarks, and we hope
that you will continue to support Nascar racing in the future.
However, while we certainly appreciate the many changes you have made
to your website in compliance with our requests, we notice that you
are still using the mark NASSCAR in your website, albeit as an acronym
for a new organization name.  In addition, you have not removed the
graphic of the NASCAR Racing box which displays the multi-colored
NASCAR bar logo.

Because your continued use of the mark NASSCAR threatens to dilute the
distinctive quality of the NASCAR mark and to create a likelihood of
confusion among consumers, we must again insist that you stop any
further use of "NASSCAR" as a trademark or as an abbreviation for your
organization name.  Although the mark NASSCAR is not identical in
appearance to the NASCAR mark, both marks are pronounced the same and
are identical in all material aspects.  Additionally, the mark is used
in connection with a computer simulated racing league that utilizes an
official Nascar-licensed product.  As such, there is still a good
possibility that consumers would be confused as to the relationship
between Nascar and your organization, despite the fact that you have
incorporated the disclaimer that we requested.

Also, we notice that you still have the image of the NASCAR Racing
video game box on your website, which includes the mutli-colored
NASCAR bar logo.  We must ask again that you remove that image.

Please understand that our position with respect to your use of
NASSCAR is not mere "nit picking."  Nascar is under legal duty to take
all necessary precautions to prevent the loss of its trademark rights.
Therefore, we also ask that whatever mark you select to replace the
NASSCAR mark not be designed to "play off" of or imitate the NASCAR
mark.

If we can help you in any way with the necessary changes, please let
us know.

Sincerely,

Martin J. Elgison
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One word folks..........Bullshit.  This is exactly what NASCAR thinks
of you, the computer sim driver.

 A trademark issue.....I really don't think so. How many web sites are
out there that use the word NASCAR, a picture of the Nascar Racing
game box, etc etc.  How many NASSCAR drivers really got confused,
thinking I was actually at the race last week and beat Dale Earnhardt
to the line?

It's all dollars and cents folks.  NASSCAR commands the attention of
alot of computer sim drivers.  Now that NASCAR has sanctioned Papyrus
as its 13th division, it's quite clear that NASCAR wants full control
of the simulated racing world.

I guess I'll rename the series.......NASUCKS.  Think anyone would be
confused about the meaning of that?

Please, not just for the sake of NASSCAR, but for the sake of all
series similar to it which operate today or may operate in the future,
write or call NASCAR and let them know what you think of their latest
endeavor.

NASCAR
1801 W. International Sppedway Blvd.
Daytona Beach, FL  32114
(904)253-0611

 _______________________________________
             Tim Wortman              

     NASSCAR '96 Series Director      


   Visit the NASSCAR '96 home page    
 http://www.racesimcentral.net/
 _______________________________________

I'm sure to get flamed for this, BUT... keep in mind this is nothing
personal and I'm just trying to be objective.

sent shooting through ***space:

I couldn't say this until I'd talked to NASCAR personally.  Like I
ever will...

Well, the problem with NASSCAR (at least as I can see it in the
gentleman's letter) is not just the word NASCAR or the box logo --
it's that NASSCAR is in that distinctive multicolored bar logo that is
EXACTLY like the NASCAR logo.  That, coupled with the NASCAR box, is
close enough to the actual logo that it might be considered a
violation.  Close enough, at least, for them to write to you.  I don't
think this has anything to do with them thinking you're affiliated
with NASCAR -- just that they think your site mimics the trademarked
items too closely.

I don't think so.  I think that now that NASCAR is entering into the
sim-racing field, they don't want any confusion as to which site is
legally licensed to use their logo.  Simple.  Otherwise, if they WERE
trying to take over sim racing, they'd have gone after IVGA, IVL, IGN,
etc. etc. etc. as well -- but they don't, because they have unique
logos and names.  It has nothing to do with the size or importance of
a racing series, either.  Just the trademarks.

My guess is when Daytona found out about the patch, they might have
alerted NASCAR to be more vigilant to sim racing and possible
trademark violations.  They are, after all, legally bound by the terms
of the trademark law to defend it, or they'll lose the rights to it.

I certainly am not.

I'm not going to, because in this case I think they have legal
justification for their actions.  I would be on their side as well if
they wrote ME a letter getting on me for using sponsors' look-and-feel
in IWCCCARS -- because frankly I am.

Truth be told, NASSCAR is popular enough that it wouldn't hurt you to
change your logo design.  That would clear up this whole problem.  My
understanding is that they don't care about the NAME, just that your
logos mimic their trademarked ones too closely.
--

IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Well I guess I'll get flamed too, but when did making money become imm***
in this country? Everytime someone tries to make a buck, or in this case
almost a Billion bucks, people label them as scum. Hey they (NASCAR) put
on a show, and spent years building it, and invested  time, sweat, and
money (not to mention ***) into making it go and they have a right to
protect their legal rights. Actually, having worked in media for some
years and being on both ends of one of those letters, they seemed to be
more reasonable about it than most. They seem to be quite willing to work
with you so both parties can be satisfied, and considering they have the
hammer here, it's seems to be a generous offer. Again, try not to take it
personally and use the chance to make your logo your own, and lend some
uniqness to it!
LB
Hawaii: Rustbucket

Well, I'm sure I'll get flamed too, but after all my postings up here,
I'm getting used to it. :-)

Tim,  I'm tempted to send this to you via e-mail because I know you
(at least electonically from AOL & Hawaii).  But I think/hope my
posting will help inform everyone.

A lot of what I want to say has already been covered in the other 2
follow-up postings.  Bottom line, NASCAR is a business... a business
out to make money.  Good for them -- God bless America!

What is NASCAR?  What does NASCAR offer?  They are a brand.  Those 6
letters are about all they own & about all they NEED to own.  You
mention or think the word NASCAR & you get a very clear image of what
they are all about.  That's a VERY powerful brand.  It's up there with
Coke & McDonalds.

So, you bet you butts they're going to protect their brand name.  They
have every right to do so, and they are quite smart to do so.  If the
value of those 6 letters is diminished, they are left with nothing.
Sure, the France family also owns a number of tracks through a
SEPARATE company (ISC), but the events held at those tracks are big
only because the NASCAR name is attached to those events.  Again,
those 6 letters are HUGE.

Tim, you say  "This is exactly what NASCAR thinks of you, the computer
sim driver".  You really want to know what NASCAR thinks about the
computer sim driver?  They think the world of you.  They think so much
of the computer sim driver that they just created a new NASCAR
division just for you -- the NASCAR Racing League.  You know how many
people would give their right arm to become a sanctoned NASCAR
division?  You know how many people dream of being part of NASCAR?  My
God, Tim, think about it!  They know exactly how big the computer sim
driver is... and they think a LOT about the computer sim driver.

Well guess what, just like the other 12 NASCAR divisions, the NASCAR
Racing League proudly hangs our hat on the power behind the NASCAR
name/brand.  The NRL will be great because NASCAR is great... because
those 6 letters mean so much. If we were to roll out Hawaii as the
"Generic Stockcar Racing League", people wouldn't have a clear idea of
what we are all about. However, call it the "NASCAR Racing League" and
you know that you will get the ultimate racing experience... because
NASCAR is behind it.

The fact that they are talking to you about NASSCAR is because they
HAVE TO protect their brand name.  The name is what they own.  The
brand IS the product.  If they don't protect it, the brand is
worthtless.  They aren't saying that NASSCAR is a bad thing that will
diminish their name, all they are saying is that NOBODY can use their
name.  They can't give it to you in the form of NASSCAR for a well run
league, and then tell some other guy 'no' because he wants to run a
league called NAZCAR just beacuse he isn't as well organized as you.
NOBODY CAN USE IT.

Now, why is NASCAR and Daytona suddenly paying so much attention to
the sim market & the online world?  Simple... because they just threw
their hat in the ring.  They saw how big the original NASCAR Racing
was, they saw how big the computer game market is, they saw how big
the online world is, and they jumped in with NASCAR 2 & the NASCAR
Racing League.  They also jumped in with a long-term agreement with
Papyrus/Sierra to keep bringing more NASCAR products out.

So, if you were a big company & you were jumping in with both feet,
don't you think you might start watching you "new market" a lot
closer?  Of course you would! That's just smart business.  And they
are watching.

Well, with the good comes the bad.  You want NASCAR 2?  You want the
NASCAR Racing League?  You want NASCAR 3 & beyond?  It sure sounds
like everyone does. With it, however, comes the fact that NASCAR & the
licensed properties are going to be keeping a much closer eye on this
industry, because they have just become PART of this industry.
Frankly, a lot of what people used to get away with might not fly so
well anymore.

Does that mean that everything people try to do is going to get shot
down?  Of course not!  However, if someone is going to take, for
example, the Daytona track & distribute it, ISC is going to have
something to say about it.  The Daytona mark is big money too, and
Daytona is in the business of making money.  If anyone is going to do
a Daytona track, ISC is going to be part of it (and we hope to do it
with them someday!).  And, if someone calls an online racing league
NASSCAR, NASCAR is going to protect it as well.  That doesn't make
them evil, that just makes them smart business people out to protect
what they have built & what they own.  Just because you love their
product does not give you the right to use their name.

If you think they're different than anyone else in the world (well,
America), try opening up a chain of burger places called MacDonalds.
Names, brands and trademarks are very valuable.  

Try to put yourself in their position.  If any of us had anything like
what they have, I bet we'd all protect it, too.  I know I would.

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Reading Tim's message has gotten me thinking that maybe someone could
come after us (IVL, IGN, etc.), at least me anyway.  I guess in the back
of my mind I figured either Tim had already obtained permission from
NASCAR or they would catch him eventually.  My series strives to mimic
NASCAR in everyway possible except their logo.  Every race is named the
same, I have as many track logos as I can in the web pages because
graphics is what everyone wants.  I've thought about changing the names
of the races, but we are still running on the same tracks and still use
big name sponsors like Goodwrench and Valvoline.

If NASCAR is going to get uptight about the use of its name and
'likeness', then what should we expect from all of the other
corporations that have logos on our webpages?  We certainly can't get
permission from all of them, heck, it would take months to even get one
of them to talk to us.  There's only so many fake names you can come up
with that don't include some product or another.

You'ld have to be an absolute idiot to confuse a simulated racing series
with real NASCAR Racing.

David Martin
IVL Series Director

This is not BS, it is the law.  As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt.
or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co.
that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them.  We have had to
deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or
nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the
unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it.

        Tim V

On Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:14:11 -0400, David Martin

See, that's not what I saw in the NASCAR guy's letter at all.  If you
remember, he was referring SPECIFICALLY to NASCAR's
yellow/red/purple/blue bar logo, which NASSCAR had up until then been
using for their own logo, down to the same font style.  That, paired
with the NASCAR logo on the simulator box, apparently constituted a
threat to the trademark.

I saw nothing in the letter that had ANYTHING to do with either the
NASSCAR name, the racing series, or anything else.  Just the logos.

That's true.  With that in mind, it makes you appreciate Papyrus'
effort to come up with fake names in their carsets.. ;-)

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.
--

IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Actually, you haven't been to the page for a while Tony. The Nasscar
logo now doesn't even remotely resemble the official multi-color bar
design that Nascar uses.

The problem does lie in the name Nasscar, and it's only because it's a
simulation series.

If Nascar wants to be the policeman of the internet, they better start
doing a better job. A quick trip to Info Search tonight netted better
than 2000 sites that reference Nascar. Of the first 40 I looked at, 24
had copyright violations. Some were actually commercial sites, that
clearly did not meet the requirements of Nascar, even if they had been
authorized sites.

Commercial sites, selling goods, collecting profits. But let's turn
our attention to the racing sims page.....mine in particular.

But this has nothing to do with Nascar's entry into the sim racing
world. Hmmm.....

Snip

Yeah, I know that Tony. And I'll admit I kind of went off here. Not
something I usually do.

I'll of course have to make all the changes they request, even though
I don't believe some are within their boundries, since I don't have
large heaps of cash lying about. But I'm not going to be singled out
like this without making some noise either.

 _______________________________________
             Tim Wortman              

     NASSCAR '96 Series Director      


   Visit the NASSCAR '96 home page    
 http://www.racesimcentral.net/
 _______________________________________

[snip]

Reread the second part of the letter. They specifically ask him to stop using
the name 'NASSCAR.'

I think the _only_ reason NASCAR even contacted him is because of the name
similarity. Having the Nascar logos everywhere is free advertising for them,
but they don't want people mistaking his organization for theirs. Nascar could
hire a full-time staff to search for their logo on the net if they really
wanted to get rid of it, but it's a big waste of their time and money and i'm
sure they know that.

I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind choosing NASSCAR as a name was it's
similarity to NASCAR. I can appreciate being passionate about one's
organization, but a name change will not degrade it's popularity. It's easy to
confuse one name for the other, I did when I was a newbie to this group. I
would have to side with NASCAR on this one.

I also don't think NASCAR is going to go after other racing groups. Doing that
would only create hostility, which would harm Nascar's beloved 'reputation.'
they spoke of in the letter.

A story related to this. Just before we released IndyCar Racing II for DOS
we ran our fake names by our lawyers. On THE DAY WE CUT THE GOLD CD, the
lawyers called and said we couldn't use the name Enerjuice (which we had
used in NASCAR). It seems that a company had applied for a trademark on
the name Enerjuice (some sports-related drink, no doubt). We were
frantically editing artwork literally hours before the CD had to make the
Fed Ex shipment to the duplicators.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Bill.

Besides, ever think that with NASCAR 2 coming soon, and Hawaii being
the prototype for the '13th NASCAR division' maybe they're a little
pissed off 'cause Tim beat them to using NASSCAR?  (I know its a
longshot, but who knows?  stranger things have happened!)

I also hope NASCAR, Papyrus and Daytona officials get together (maybe
even IMS?) so us modem racers can run a full season!  (ha! yea, sure!)

-John
They're not bugs!  They're random features!

I'm sure Tim's series (in which I made my racing debuts last year) was
never meant to replace NASCAR (no one with at least a neuron in his/her
head could think this), but I imagine that NASCAR is hitting Tim on his
head to prevent others from doing it. I believe that they are trying
to avoid a CART/IRL situation in the (very promising) online racing scene.

Furthermore, the (in my opinion absurd) US copyright laws are forcing
them to do this.

Just my 0.02$

Folco

--
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sent shooting through ***space:

That's the whole point, though.  NASCAR is getting into sim racing,
and they want and need the recognition that comes with their logo
standards.  ALL corporations are that way -- trust me, I've seen
people like SCO and Novell do this all the time at work.  Sure, there
are hundreds of sites with NASCAR's logo on them, but they're not
altered from their original form.  Also, they're not being used in
connection with non-NASCAR entities.  You can bet that if someone puts
NASCAR's logo and uses it to promote a racing series that isn't
connected to NASCAR (like "Bob's Intermountain NASCAR Series") that
NASCAR will act to protect its logo standards and trademarks.

Picture this.  I come up with a type of cereal that's pink,
sugar-coated, doughnut shaped, and tastes like cinnamon.  I put it in
a green box with a picture of the bowl full of the cereal on the front
cover.  The name of the cereal is "Apple Jacques" by "Kelogs".  Do you
see the difference if I advertise my cereal THAT way (even if I don't
charge for it) than if I put it in an orange box and call it "Apple
O's" by "Tony's Cereal Co."?  The latter way would just make my
product generic and have no resemblance to the tradmark holder, so
it's all right.  But the FIRST way, innocent as I was to copyright and
trademark law, infringed on Kellogg's trademarked product because it
had the product's look and feel.

People may speculate about the rightness or wrongness of SOFTWARE look
and feel because that's an unexplored territory, but in NASSCAR's case
and the one I just posed there are YEARS of case precedents to prove
that NASCAR is WELL within their legal and ethical boundaries doing
what they're doing.
--

IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS