rec.autos.simulators

by **Gary M. Smithru** » Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:00:00

> This is not BS, it is the law. As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt.
> or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co.
> that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them. We have had to
> deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or
> nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the
> unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it.

> Tim V

In this case NASCAR has a legitimate beef with the use of NASSCAR...it is
confusing! I still read NASCAR whenever I see NASSCAR. If I don't happen to
catch the fact on the second pass, I end up reading an article that I am not
interested in. If a new person was reading a post about NASSCAR, especially with
NRL around the corner, they may mistakenly think that something written by the guy
running NASSCAR is actually from NASCAR (either because of confusion over the
name, or because the person believes that it is a typo). This is another reason
why NASCAR needs to protect the name (and its logo, when a person sees something,
most of the time this is mapped to something that the person knows...sometimes the
mind realizes that something is different, but most of the time it will not.
Having the word NASSCAR and NASSCAR in the NASCAR logos are bad from a confusion
standpoint. People are going to see these things and think "NASCAR"...until they
learn to watch out for it. This is why trademarks, logos, etc, are important to a
company...you don't want to buy something from Soney do you (spelling
intentional)). As far as I'm concern, it is long time that NASSCAR changes it
name.

by **James Bev** » Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:00:00

(RickGenter) writes:

>Johns) writes:

>>That's true. With that in mind, it makes you appreciate Papyrus'
>>effort to come up with fake names in their carsets.. ;-)

>A story related to this. Just before we released IndyCar Racing II for
DOS
>we ran our fake names by our lawyers. On THE DAY WE CUT THE GOLD CD, the
>lawyers called and said we couldn't use the name Enerjuice (which we had
>used in NASCAR). It seems that a company had applied for a trademark on
>the name Enerjuice (some sports-related drink, no doubt). We were
>frantically editing artwork literally hours before the CD had to make the
>Fed Ex shipment to the duplicators.

>Rick Genter
>Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
>Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Excellent story, thanks. While we're on the subject I must congratulate
you retrospectively on your other fake company names - I thought some of
them were hilarious, intentional or not. The Lenient Loans/Chicken Shack
stock car lasted ages until I switched sponsors. Er, started using real
companies' logos. And thanks for making the PCX files readily accessible
..

James

--
James Bevan

NeXTMail & MIME welcome

by **Michael E. Carv** » Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:00:00

: Well, I'm sure I'll get flamed too, but after all my postings up here,
: I'm getting used to it. :-)

Ed, if you get flamed for this excellent post, I'll be standing in the
"fire lane" with ya! Well put! From what I've seen of the facts, NASCAR
dealt with this issue with class and understanding.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Bryan Bar** » Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Alrighty then...

So, all that is left is to change the name. I say have a contest worth 50
points to the NASSCAR driver that sends in the name that gets picked to
replace NASSCAR.

I have been with NASSCAR since its beginning (top 10 in WC div. all 3
seasons) and have never seen any other series boast the number of drivers
that NASSCAR has. (400+?) I don't think a name change will harm the
series in any way (although multiplayer is definately the future =) ).

So, how 'bout it Tim? I could use the 50 points. We'll still be there for
ya. 8)

Bryan Barns

BajaBarns on Hawaii

#18 K.S. Garage Pontiac
TLC Racing Team
Medford, OR

by **Bill Cranst** » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>sent shooting through ***space:
>>I think what Tim was originally complaining about is that NASCAR seems
>>to be making every effort to single him out, when there exists
>>hundreds of web sites that use NASCAR's logos that to this point
>>aren't receiving the same sort of attention that Tim's site is
>>getting. This does seem coincidental considering it comes shortly
>>after NASCAR announces its intention to sponsor an online series.
>That's the whole point, though. NASCAR is getting into sim racing,
>and they want and need the recognition that comes with their logo
>standards. ALL corporations are that way -- trust me, I've seen
>people like SCO and Novell do this all the time at work. Sure, there
>are hundreds of sites with NASCAR's logo on them, but they're not
>altered from their original form. Also, they're not being used in
>connection with non-NASCAR entities. You can bet that if someone puts
>NASCAR's logo and uses it to promote a racing series that isn't
>connected to NASCAR (like "Bob's Intermountain NASCAR Series") that
>NASCAR will act to protect its logo standards and trademarks.
>Picture this. I come up with a type of cereal that's pink,
>sugar-coated, doughnut shaped, and tastes like cinnamon. I put it in
>a green box with a picture of the bowl full of the cereal on the front
>cover. The name of the cereal is "Apple Jacques" by "Kelogs". Do you
>see the difference if I advertise my cereal THAT way (even if I don't
>charge for it) than if I put it in an orange box and call it "Apple
>O's" by "Tony's Cereal Co."? The latter way would just make my
>product generic and have no resemblance to the tradmark holder, so
>it's all right. But the FIRST way, innocent as I was to copyright and
>trademark law, infringed on Kellogg's trademarked product because it
>had the product's look and feel.
>People may speculate about the rightness or wrongness of SOFTWARE look
>and feel because that's an unexplored territory, but in NASSCAR's case
>and the one I just posed there are YEARS of case precedents to prove
>that NASCAR is WELL within their legal and ethical boundaries doing
>what they're doing.
>--

>IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
>Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
>Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Yes that's right Tony, but Marvin's (NASCAR lawyer) original letter
never says "we're singling you out because we're getting into the
online market". The letter simply states the NASSCAR's use of several
logos run counter to trademark law and must be removed. This is all
well and good, but if it can be applied to Tim's site then we all know
of many others NASCAR can be equally vigilant about. It wouldn't hurt
if NASCAR/Marvin just came out and said what they're really after
here.

Bill.

by **Frank Perreau** » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>This is not BS, it is the law. As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt.
>or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co.
>that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them. We have had to
>deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or
>nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the
>unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it.
>
> Tim V
>
>

A very similiar set of circumstance is that of property. If someone were to
pitch a tent in your front yard for twenty years and you never did anything
during that time to kick him out, after that twenty years he would own your
property, free and clear. Trademarks work the same way.

--- Frank ---

by **Ed Mart** » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>I believe that the biggest problem for NASCAR is that NASSCAR has three
>divisions with names that only slightly differ from the names of the real
>divisions. If NASCAR plans to have Online Winston Cup, Online Busch Grand
>National and Online Arca divisions, there could be a big confusion.
>I'm sure Tim's series (in which I made my racing debuts last year) was
>never meant to replace NASCAR (no one with at least a neuron in his/her
>head could think this), but I imagine that NASCAR is hitting Tim on his
>head to prevent others from doing it. I believe that they are trying
>to avoid a CART/IRL situation in the (very promising) online racing scene.
>Furthermore, the (in my opinion absurd) US copyright laws are forcing
>them to do this.
>Just my 0.02$
>Folco
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Folco Banfi | Check out the "records for sale", "NASCAR"
>Universite de Fribourg | and "Charts" sections of my home page!
>Institut d'Informatique |
>Chemin du Musee 3 |
>1700 Fribourg, Switzerland |
>Tel. +41.37.29.84.79 |

>http://www-iiuf.unifr.ch/groups/sde/users/banfi/home.html
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a somewhat useless asside, NASCAR/Papyrus/Sierra cannot use the
names of liquor and/or tobacco products online or in our stand alone
games. I believe there is only 1 state that explicitly forbids it
(California), but software companies as well as the liquor & tobacco
compaines have all agreed to stay away from each other (well, at least
when it comes to putting logos in games!).

So, no Online Winston Cup for the NASCAR Racing League.
Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

by **Terje Wold Johans** » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00

> Johns) writes:

> >That's true. With that in mind, it makes you appreciate Papyrus'
> >effort to come up with fake names in their carsets.. ;-)

> A story related to this. Just before we released IndyCar Racing II for DOS
> we ran our fake names by our lawyers. On THE DAY WE CUT THE GOLD CD, the
> lawyers called and said we couldn't use the name Enerjuice (which we had
> used in NASCAR). It seems that a company had applied for a trademark on
> the name Enerjuice (some sports-related drink, no doubt). We were
> frantically editing artwork literally hours before the CD had to make the
> Fed Ex shipment to the duplicators.

Must the names be used for actual products in order to be actual
trademarks? If not, why don't you apply for trademarks for all
your fake trademarks?

--
--- Terje Wold Johansen

--- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/
--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

by **RickGent** » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00

As soon as I was told about Enerjuice, that was the first suggestion I
made.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Sierra On-Line, Inc.

by **Chris and/or Da** » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Trademarks cost money, and in some cases, big money. I researched
into it, and a person that is licenced in trademark laws has to fill
out the paper work, ie a lawyer. So, if you have something like
NASCAR or Microsoft or McDonald's, where those names/logos are your
money makers from sales of tickets, to products, to t-shirts, you
probable have enough money to do all of that. Not all of us get that
off of a name/logo, so getting a registered trademark is not worth it.
It is easier to just copyright it, and go on, that is free.

Chris

>Must the names be used for actual products in order to be actual
>trademarks? If not, why don't you apply for trademarks for all
>your fake trademarks?
>--
>--- Terje Wold Johansen

>--- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/
>--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

by **David Spark** » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>Trademarks cost money, and in some cases, big money. I researched
>into it, and a person that is licenced in trademark laws has to fill
>out the paper work, ie a lawyer.

Not true. There is no requirement for the person filing the papers to have
a license of any sort. Arguably, there are plenty of traps for the
uninitiated to fall into, which is why its generally a good idea to consult
an IP attorney when filing for a trademark or patent. Copyright is much
simpler, the moment the pen has left the paper, a work is copyright (in any
country that is a member of the Berne Convention). However, there are
additional protections afforded to you if you take the time to put a
copyright mark on the work, and further protections if you file the
appropriate paperwork with the PTO.

Disclaimer: I'm no legal beagle, take my advice at your own risk.

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

by **Sm..** » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>Please, reference this letter:
>Alston & Bird
>One Atlantic Center
>1201 West Peachtree Street
>Atlanta, GA 30309-3424
>Martin J. Elgison
>May 29, 1996
>Mr. Tim Wortman
>Decatur, IL
> Re: NASSCAR
>Dear Mr. Wortman,
>We are in receipt of your letter of May 12, 1996 regarding your
>NASSCAR website. We thank you for your willingness to cooperate with
>Nascar in its endeavor to protect the NASCAR trademarks, and we hope
>that you will continue to support Nascar racing in the future.
>However, while we certainly appreciate the many changes you have made
>to your website in compliance with our requests, we notice that you
>are still using the mark NASSCAR in your website, albeit as an acronym
>for a new organization name. In addition, you have not removed the
>graphic of the NASCAR Racing box which displays the multi-colored
>NASCAR bar logo.
>Because your continued use of the mark NASSCAR threatens to dilute the
>distinctive quality of the NASCAR mark and to create a likelihood of
>confusion among consumers, we must again insist that you stop any
>further use of "NASSCAR" as a trademark or as an abbreviation for your
>organization name. Although the mark NASSCAR is not identical in
>appearance to the NASCAR mark, both marks are pronounced the same and
>are identical in all material aspects. Additionally, the mark is used
>in connection with a computer simulated racing league that utilizes an
>official Nascar-licensed product. As such, there is still a good
>possibility that consumers would be confused as to the relationship
>between Nascar and your organization, despite the fact that you have
>incorporated the disclaimer that we requested.

Hack.....

So, if the Armani Suited oh great emperators at Nascar are so worried
about confusing we poor lowly downtrodden consumers why don't they
include an email address where we consumers can tell them to quit
trying to jack us off in the corner? What? You mean to tell me *no*
one at nascar can *afford* internet access or email? AWWWW!!!

Smoke

N.A.S.C.A.R.: Need Another Seven Completely Arrogant Rednecks.

by **Tony Joh** » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

through ***space:

You know, if I were NASCAR and I was faced with having to deal with
people like you who don't have all the facts and spout off without
knowing the situation, I would probably avoid the Internet too.
--

IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~iwcc/project.htm
Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

by **MNesevit** » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

"Create a likelihood of confusion for the consumer" Gimme a ***in break
!! They sure as hell dont mind selling you a bumper sticker with their
logo on it for $ 8.00
They just cant figure out how to make a buck off it !!!

Mick

by **Ron R** » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00

>"Create a likelihood of confusion for the consumer" Gimme a ***in break
>!! They sure as hell dont mind selling you a bumper sticker with their
>logo on it for $ 8.00
>They just cant figure out how to make a buck off it !!!
>Mick

Uhmm Hmmm,
Yep, *Mick*,
With a mouth like that hangin out the window we can only presume that
you owned Nascar Racing for about 3 seconds before setting the damage
to none and roaring around Taledega the wrong way eh redneck?
There are far more reasonable ways to gripe than this senseless
childish foulmouth blathering.
Of course it does require more than a 3rd grade education to grasp the
concept :)

--
Trifle *NOT* with sleeping Earnharts.

----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------

*** Trifle Not With Sleeping Cougars ***

rec.autos.simulators

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info

IMPORTANT Nascar Info