David C (R4)
J.
As for online racing, GPL is not THE model Crammond would want to look to.
MS's racing games at the Zone, Ratbag's Powerslide / DTR, and Papyrus's
N2/N3 (surely N4 too) are.
David G Fisher
> J.
> > Apparantly GP3 in unlikely to support Force Feedback. Can you believe
> this?
> > What a short sighted decision. Nick Court says they tested it for ages,
> > months ago and couldn't get it to do exactly what they wanted it to do.
> So
> > how come everyone else can. Surely even a poor effort at FF like in F1
> 2000
> > would be better than nothing.
> > It's a real shame because I just saw the new 18 MB GP3 video released
> today
> > and it looks absolutely terrific.
> > Roll on GP4...
Having no experience with either of them I'd like to know how they, if at
all, overcome the problems associated with latency and packet loss? -How do
they deal with position warp, faulty collision prediction?
I'm pretty sure the net is in no way nicer to those games than to GPL, so if
the methods they use are common knowledge we can look forward to faultless
online racing in all future releases!
Jan.
=---
--
Don Burnette
Dburn in N3 and Legends
> I'm starting to think that GP3 shouldn't be released on July 28, Microprose
> should just wait for GP4 and release that as GP3.
--
Chuck Kandler #70
K&S Racing
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195
Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at:
http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun!
They'll call you names
And spit in your face,
But legends never die. --Gene Simmons
They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since their
excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio??? It
was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after
4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1
simulation until another year or two.
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
The Ratbag developers, for example, have created a unique internet multiplay
system. They use innovative compression techniques and quaternionic
orientation smoothing to deal with internet latency problems. Their system
compensates for the deficiencies in a network. It has a system of even
information distribution and synchronisation between the different players
that allows the game to continue smoothly even if a player(s), including the
host, drops out.
:-P
As for the others, I don't know all their secrets as I don't currently own a
sim development company. I do know, after 3 years of online play with a
number of different racing sims/games (POD, CPR, MTM2, N2, Powerslide, DTR),
that GPL was the only game I suffered from mind numbing frequent disconnects
(and watched/heard of many others go through the same) and unusual amounts
of warping. Even my time with POD from three years ago was very stable
online. Disco's were never an issue. I made it to the finals of their
$10,000 tournament and everything went smooth for all involved. I also made
it to the finals of a sponsored MTM2 tournament (there was another with a
grand prize being a truck), and disco's were again not an issue. If those
games performed the way GPL did, the tournaments never could have happened
because of the disco chaos that would of ensued. They may have been arcade
racers, but the contestants were VERY serious, very practiced, very skilled,
and the prizes were pretty damn good ($10,000, an expensive truck, trips,
video cards, controllers, etc.) The best known racers did end up placing
highest as they should have. Disconnects would have ruined everything, and
the results would have been as accurate as a coin toss.
With the other games, I also did not have to go through a lengthy process of
altering files, downloading programs, changing my old modem settings (like
turning my 56k down to 28.8 which is rather sad), and other hoop jumping
requirements.
You really should give sme of the other games a try online. I bet TRI does a
superb job with their upcoming 4 x 4 Evolution online play.
And no, I'm not Papyrus bashing because they certainly know what they are
doing with online play, as my earlier references to N2/N3 prove. They may
even be the best at it, but GPL wasn't the sim to look to for proof.
David G Fisher
Just to be fair to Crammond, I'll remind you how Papyrus felt about ff in
GPL (another game which was in development for a number of years). They
didn't include it until nine months after the game's release supposedly
because they didn't think ff was worthwhile. Maybe Crammond is such a
perfectionist that in his mind, ff technology still isn't good enough. I
don't agree with him. He doesn't care if I do.
Also, GPL was a game programmed for LAN play, not TCP/IP, just like GP3. I
remember very clearly who the beta tester was who relayed this information
from Papyrus, when they said it, and where.
IMO, GP3 won't have TCP/IP play because they couldn't/wouldn't pay the fee
for the rights to do so.
Maybe GP4 will have both features.
David G Fisher
> They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since
their
> excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio???
It
> was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after
> 4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1
> simulation until another year or two.
> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.WeRace.net
> -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
>They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since their
>excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio??? It
>was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after
>4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1
>simulation until another year or two.
Simple fix- don't buy it. I can excuse GPL's lack of initial support-
it wasn't widespread at the time- but given what the GPL patch did,
there's no excuse. GPL's FF effects actually add to the, uh,
controlability, and I'd have expected Crammond's sim to do the same.
"detracts from the racing"?? The only thing it detracts from is the
ship-date, or more to the point, the bottom line (aka cash-flow).
While I like the Crammond-sims as much as the rest of the crowd, let's
face it, the poorly optimized graphics and so on leave a lot to be
desired. Lack of FF only brings out another shortcoming.
I might try a demo of GP3, but frankly, given GPL's capabilities,
well, I don't need a modern-day F1 sim if it ain't got FF.
Bye Coco
> The Ratbag developers, for example, have created a unique internet multiplay
> system. They use innovative compression techniques and quaternionic
> orientation smoothing to deal with internet latency problems. Their system
> compensates for the deficiencies in a network. It has a system of even
> information distribution and synchronisation between the different players
> that allows the game to continue smoothly even if a player(s), including the
> host, drops out.
> :-P
> As for the others, I don't know all their secrets as I don't currently own a
> sim development company. I do know, after 3 years of online play with a
> number of different racing sims/games (POD, CPR, MTM2, N2, Powerslide, DTR),
> that GPL was the only game I suffered from mind numbing frequent disconnects
> (and watched/heard of many others go through the same) and unusual amounts
> of warping. Even my time with POD from three years ago was very stable
> online. Disco's were never an issue. I made it to the finals of their
> $10,000 tournament and everything went smooth for all involved. I also made
> it to the finals of a sponsored MTM2 tournament (there was another with a
> grand prize being a truck), and disco's were again not an issue. If those
> games performed the way GPL did, the tournaments never could have happened
> because of the disco chaos that would of ensued. They may have been arcade
> racers, but the contestants were VERY serious, very practiced, very skilled,
> and the prizes were pretty damn good ($10,000, an expensive truck, trips,
> video cards, controllers, etc.) The best known racers did end up placing
> highest as they should have. Disconnects would have ruined everything, and
> the results would have been as accurate as a coin toss.
> With the other games, I also did not have to go through a lengthy process of
> altering files, downloading programs, changing my old modem settings (like
> turning my 56k down to 28.8 which is rather sad), and other hoop jumping
> requirements.
> You really should give sme of the other games a try online. I bet TRI does a
> superb job with their upcoming 4 x 4 Evolution online play.
> And no, I'm not Papyrus bashing because they certainly know what they are
> doing with online play, as my earlier references to N2/N3 prove. They may
> even be the best at it, but GPL wasn't the sim to look to for proof.
> David G Fisher
> > In what way are those others superior to GPL?
> > Having no experience with either of them I'd like to know how they, if at
> > all, overcome the problems associated with latency and packet loss? -How
> do
> > they deal with position warp, faulty collision prediction?
> > I'm pretty sure the net is in no way nicer to those games than to GPL, so
> if
> > the methods they use are common knowledge we can look forward to faultless
> > online racing in all future releases!
> > Jan.
> > =---
> > David G Fisher wrote...
> > > I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure?
> > > As for online racing, GPL is not THE model Crammond would want to look
> to.
> > > MS's racing games at the Zone, Ratbag's Powerslide / DTR, and Papyrus's
> > > N2/N3 (surely N4 too) are.
> > > David G Fisher
> > > <snip>
Bye Coco
> Just to be fair to Crammond, I'll remind you how Papyrus felt about ff in
> GPL (another game which was in development for a number of years). They
> didn't include it until nine months after the game's release supposedly
> because they didn't think ff was worthwhile. Maybe Crammond is such a
> perfectionist that in his mind, ff technology still isn't good enough. I
> don't agree with him. He doesn't care if I do.
> Also, GPL was a game programmed for LAN play, not TCP/IP, just like GP3. I
> remember very clearly who the beta tester was who relayed this information
> from Papyrus, when they said it, and where.
> IMO, GP3 won't have TCP/IP play because they couldn't/wouldn't pay the fee
> for the rights to do so.
> Maybe GP4 will have both features.
> David G Fisher
> > > I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure?
> > They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since
> their
> > excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio???
> It
> > was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after
> > 4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1
> > simulation until another year or two.
> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > -- http://www.WeRace.net
> > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> realise
> > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
Bye Coco
> >> I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure?
> >They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since their
> >excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio??? It
> >was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after
> >4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1
> >simulation until another year or two.
> Incredible. The 'rain' feature in World Circuit was comically
> implemented, then GP2 never had rain, nor 3d acceleration, and face
> it, the game had really poor-ass optimization. Even Ubisoft mentioned
> the lack of authenticity- RPMs weren't modeled to affect speed, etc
> etc. Now no FF, in a time when everything supports it. Incredible.
> Simple fix- don't buy it. I can excuse GPL's lack of initial support-
> it wasn't widespread at the time- but given what the GPL patch did,
> there's no excuse. GPL's FF effects actually add to the, uh,
> controlability, and I'd have expected Crammond's sim to do the same.
> "detracts from the racing"?? The only thing it detracts from is the
> ship-date, or more to the point, the bottom line (aka cash-flow).
> While I like the Crammond-sims as much as the rest of the crowd, let's
> face it, the poorly optimized graphics and so on leave a lot to be
> desired. Lack of FF only brings out another shortcoming.
> I might try a demo of GP3, but frankly, given GPL's capabilities,
> well, I don't need a modern-day F1 sim if it ain't got FF.
>Bye Coco
The point was that GP2 didn't get patched onto 3D support.
