rec.autos.simulators

by **Jan Verschuere** » Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Gp3 within the space of year?? -Wanna put some money on that? ;-)

However good a bike game AMA (and GP500) turn out to be, they're never going
to be as immersive as racing car simulations. Also, I had some serious
questions about the sim content (and scripted damage) of Europress's
previous 2 Rally games, so I wouldn't hold my breath for that one either.

So what's left?? N3: less detailed physics for the sake of frame rate. And
dark horse Dirt Track Racing: looks and sounds promising, but will it
deliver?

Jan.
----

> > <snip>
> Let's remember that Ratbag is not the only competitor to Papyrus <vbg>

> There is Motorsims with AMA Superbike, Europress with Rally Championship,
> and Geoff Crammond with GrandPrix3. Those titles are to be took
seriously,
> the thing about nothing will touch GPL for at least year is probably not
> true, even if one of those titles comes up as bad, or arcade-style, there
> will be probably one of them superior to GPL.
> <snip>

by **ymenar** » Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:00:00

I don't understand your POV. For you, Europress can't make a sim because of
the two Rally sim/game they made in the past, but Ratbag can do it because
of an arcade-style game named Powerslide ? I would say that Europress has
much bigger chances to be successful.

Your opinion is that bike sims can't be as immersive, but in my opinion I
say they can both be as immersive as possible. I say GP3 within a space of
year, probably spring of 2000.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

by **Jan Verschuere** » Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Bump up the price... we know it's going to be good. Might save us some
whines about how hard the thing is on here.

GPL is way under the 1cent/hour mark as far as entertainment value goes for
me. I, for one, would be prepared to pay substantially more for a pure sim
title.

Jan.
----

<Snip>
> However, based on figures thrown around here, that's only about 40,000
people.
> Can *any* publisher afford to sell so few copies?

> Eldred
>---------
> Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
> remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Jan Verschuere** » Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:00:00

How much would they have to pay YOU to do something as crazy and dangerous
as driving Nascar?? You just don't understand, do you?

IRL is a nice, patriotic idea, but doomed.

Jan.
----

<snip>

by **Jan Verschuere** » Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:00:00

I don't understand yours and the presses'... until the game ships it's going
to be the best and the most realistic sim yet, but when it does it's usually
halfway at best: e.g. TOCA2, SCGT, CMR, Nascar Revolution, the list goes on.
With a history of disappointments like that I'm adopting a "seeing is
believing" additude. The sad fact is no racing "sim" in the past year has
even come close to GPL and I see no change in the foreseeable future. Even
Papy themselves are having trouble going one up on the masterpiece.

I'm not saying Europress can't do it, only that they've got a lot to make up
for. I'm also trying not to get my hopes up for Dirt Track Racing. Yes,
Powerslide was a graphically stunning, wholy enjoyable racing game with
passable physics and I'll surely give Dirt track Racing some serious
attention when it arrives. But you can hardly say Ratbag have got a
simracing pedigree. I'm just hoping the "Powerslide was just a test, we're
ready for the serious stuff now" -line is more than just that, a line.

As for bike sims... to me driving a motorbike is just too physical to be
able to really simulate. I'm not saying GP500 and AMA won't be enjoyable
games, just not as gripping as.... well..... GPL.

Jan./ the cynic??
----
PS.: Gp3 in spring 2000?? -No way!! $10 says it doesn't even make X-mas 2000
;-)

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Ditto downunder.

> > Joe Gamer is perusing the game aisles at CompUSA when he comes to the
> > racing section. Assuming he hasn't read any read any reviews about
> > them, What is his reaction to these two titles?

> > NASCAR Racing 3: "Whoa cool! NASCAR! I love to watch NASCAR and I'd
> > love to play it! I'm gonna pick this one up!

> > Formula 1 1975: "Huh? What kind of thing is this? 1975? I wasn't even
> > born then. And what's Formula 1 anyway?"

> The problem is that this stuff works the other way too you see....

> Imagine Bob Gamer who lives in London or Franz Gamer in Munich or Pierre
> Gamer in Paris, walking up to the racing section in at the computer
shop....

> Do you think they'll pick NASCAR 3 ??

> I'll give 100:1 that 95% or more will pick a Formula 1 sim or a CART sim.
> Why? Both Formula One and CART get good exposure over here...
> NASCAR we (sadly) see way too little of.... like in pretty close to nill!

> --
> All the best,
> Edwin Solheim *remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply*
> The Paddock - a legendary site....
> <http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock>

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by **Matthew Birger Knutse** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Well, in the shelves here we've got "NASCAR ROAD RACING".

Any guesses? Yup, N.Revultion in another cardboard box with some real
Andretti-racing-like tracks....(mmmmphh!!)

Matt

> Ditto downunder.

> > > Joe Gamer is perusing the game aisles at CompUSA when he comes to the
> > > racing section. Assuming he hasn't read any read any reviews about
> > > them, What is his reaction to these two titles?

> > > NASCAR Racing 3: "Whoa cool! NASCAR! I love to watch NASCAR and I'd
> > > love to play it! I'm gonna pick this one up!

> > > Formula 1 1975: "Huh? What kind of thing is this? 1975? I wasn't even
> > > born then. And what's Formula 1 anyway?"

> > The problem is that this stuff works the other way too you see....

> > Imagine Bob Gamer who lives in London or Franz Gamer in Munich or Pierre
> > Gamer in Paris, walking up to the racing section in at the computer
> shop....

> > Do you think they'll pick NASCAR 3 ??

> > I'll give 100:1 that 95% or more will pick a Formula 1 sim or a CART sim.
> > Why? Both Formula One and CART get good exposure over here...
> > NASCAR we (sadly) see way too little of.... like in pretty close to nill!

> > --
> > All the best,
> > Edwin Solheim *remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply*
> > The Paddock - a legendary site....
> > <http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock>

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--
---------------------------------
Matthew Birger Knutsen

The Art of Legends;
http://www.gpl.electra.no

Cheek Racing Cars;
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Yeah....it's also available here, Matt.
(We also get the chaff with the wheat!)

> Well, in the shelves here we've got "NASCAR ROAD RACING".

> Any guesses? Yup, N.Revultion in another cardboard box with some real
> Andretti-racing-like tracks....(mmmmphh!!)

> Matt

> > Ditto downunder.

> > > The Johnson Family (well not the whole family, but one of them!)

> > > > Joe Gamer is perusing the game aisles at CompUSA when he comes to
the
> > > > racing section. Assuming he hasn't read any read any reviews about
> > > > them, What is his reaction to these two titles?

> > > > NASCAR Racing 3: "Whoa cool! NASCAR! I love to watch NASCAR and I'd
> > > > love to play it! I'm gonna pick this one up!

> > > > Formula 1 1975: "Huh? What kind of thing is this? 1975? I wasn't
even
> > > > born then. And what's Formula 1 anyway?"

> > > The problem is that this stuff works the other way too you see....

> > > Imagine Bob Gamer who lives in London or Franz Gamer in Munich or
Pierre
> > > Gamer in Paris, walking up to the racing section in at the computer
> > shop....

> > > Do you think they'll pick NASCAR 3 ??

> > > I'll give 100:1 that 95% or more will pick a Formula 1 sim or a CART
sim.
> > > Why? Both Formula One and CART get good exposure over here...
> > > NASCAR we (sadly) see way too little of.... like in pretty close to
nill!

> > > --
> > > All the best,
> > > Edwin Solheim *remove SPAM-GUARD in address to reply*
> > > The Paddock - a legendary site....
> > > <http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock>

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==----------
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> --
> ---------------------------------
> Matthew Birger Knutsen

> The Art of Legends;
> http://www.gpl.electra.no

> Cheek Racing Cars;
> http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

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by **rick.jo..** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

>When was the last time you saw any of those 43 NASCAR cars do anything else
>besides roll around in a traffic-jam drafting train, playing
>follow-the-leader lap after lap with little or no passing? Bring on the
>Indy cars; BRING ON CART AND BRING ON THE IRL!

>-- JB

Ummm, just about every race involves a lot of passing.
I assume you just don't watch any.
The "traffic jam drafting train" could only refer to Talledaga(sp).
Even that race involves huge scrambles for position.

by **Chris Schlette** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Skill? NASCAR? Hahaha. Nascar has a lot more to do about SETUP, teamwork
and then driving skill than just skill alone.

And FYI, just because you can line up 43 cars and do nearly 200mph does NOT
mean its good racing. Or exciting racing, or that its better. Personally I
prefer 28 cars doing over 200mph and dodging, weaving, attacking the
corners, etc than just a draft-a-thon that NASCAR superspeedway with
restrictor plates is.

> I say bring out NASCAR with the GPL engine. I bet if you take all systems
> into account, there are more Indy type games on the market than NASCAR.
So
> enough of the pretty fragile cars, bring on more NASCAR games where its
more
> skill than setup. One more thing before you start flaming, when is the
last
> time you saw 43 indy cars bunched up about 6 inches apart doing around 200
> for three hours? If you want to go fast that's fine,drive the indy cars,
if
> you want to RACE, you'll race NASCAR.

> Sondog

> > Agreed!

> > >We want a late 70's G.P. game. The time when turbo's took over F-1. And
> we
> > >want it with the GPL engine! Just think of getting side ways with
Gilles
> > >Villeneuve in turn one at Watkin's Glen. The racing then was
magnificent.
> So
> > >put this first in line on your to do list, we don't need another Nascar
> game
> > >right now!

by **Chris Schlette** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Yup, this is very true. Its why I think for a good openwheel sim to really
succeed, while its physics needs to be very good or better than GPL, it
needs to also relax some of the collisions and amount of damage absorped
slightly so that a minor bump or scrape caused by latency, warp, etc,
doesn't adversely damage the racing.

Mms, perhaps you are working at it too hard. Relax, go with the flow and
you might find yourself able to get better laps w/o as much work?

Why? I'd rather make an absolutely CLEAN pass, make the move, hound someone
into making a mistake, etc. rather than going by the because I rubbed or
bumped them out of my way.

Gotta agree with you there, even if the IRL fans are lost and looney period.
:)

Yeah, especially the CART fans. :)

by **Chris Schlette** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

hehehe. Like the first part of "BRING ON CART ....", rest we could do
without. ;)

> When was the last time you saw any of those 43 NASCAR cars do anything
else
> besides roll around in a traffic-jam drafting train, playing
> follow-the-leader lap after lap with little or no passing? Bring on the
> Indy cars; BRING ON CART AND BRING ON THE IRL!

> -- JB

> >I say bring out NASCAR with the GPL engine. I bet if you take all
systems
> >into account, there are more Indy type games on the market than NASCAR.
So
> >enough of the pretty fragile cars, bring on more NASCAR games where its
> more
> >skill than setup. One more thing before you start flaming, when is the
> last
> >time you saw 43 indy cars bunched up about 6 inches apart doing around
200
> >for three hours? If you want to go fast that's fine,drive the indy cars,
> if
> >you want to RACE, you'll race NASCAR.

> >Sondog

> >> Agreed!

> >> >We want a late 70's G.P. game. The time when turbo's took over F-1.
And
> >we
> >> >want it with the GPL engine! Just think of getting side ways with
Gilles
> >> >Villeneuve in turn one at Watkin's Glen. The racing then was
> magnificent.
> >So
> >> >put this first in line on your to do list, we don't need another
Nascar
> >game
> >> >right now!

by **Chris Schlette** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

This has been argued too much already. And I do believe the basic
conclusion was that it was NOT the gpl physics, but it was the late 60s
grand prix racing theme that may have "doomed" GPL to only 40,000 copies
[which is still quite a lot of copies] being sold. Slap on a Nascar
pictures on the box, slap on 1960/70s American muscle cars, etc on the box
and it would have sold even more [especially considering MOST people buy
games at places that won't take the game back if opened]. :)

> >Ok, no arguing with your basic point, but I think every serious simmer,
> >currently playing GPL, will buy the next GPL-engine based product,
> >regardless of which form of motorsport it portrays. The sadder truth is,
> >unless those guys at Ratbag pull off a stunning coup there won't be
anything
> >to rival GPL for at least a year.

> However, based on figures thrown around here, that's only about 40,000
people.
> Can *any* publisher afford to sell so few copies?

> Eldred

> __

> Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
> remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Jason Mond** » Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Hi Chris,

Now the really fun is to put 43 cars on a short track. :-D You get your
dodging, weaving, attacking and a few bumps don't put you out of the race.

Jason.

> Skill? NASCAR? Hahaha. Nascar has a lot more to do about SETUP, teamwork
> and then driving skill than just skill alone.

> And FYI, just because you can line up 43 cars and do nearly 200mph does NOT
> mean its good racing. Or exciting racing, or that its better. Personally I
> prefer 28 cars doing over 200mph and dodging, weaving, attacking the
> corners, etc than just a draft-a-thon that NASCAR superspeedway with
> restrictor plates is.

--------
Jason Monds
"My other car is a Ferrari"
http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

by **Eldre** » Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>Hi Chris,

>Now the really fun is to put 43 cars on a short track. :-D You get your
>dodging, weaving, attacking and a few bumps don't put you out of the race.

>Jason.

Which is why I used to LOVE running Bristol in N2. Great fun!

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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