rec.autos.simulators

by **David G Fishe** » Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:57:13

Congratulations to Neil and the podium.

Track: Sebring International Raceway
Date: 01/24/04

Session: Practice

P # DRIVER TIME
1 19 DaveGF 1:59.850
2 6 Neil__C 1:59.907
3 15 bfarmer 2:00.076
4 7 Dick-Trickle 2:00.440
5 27 BOster 2:00.968
6 103 JurjenvanderLelij 2:01.694
7 4 seery 2:02.633
8 1 Mitch_A 2:02.713
9 12 Haqsau 2:03.253
10 49 ZZBusch 2:03.254
11 66 s_brunt 2:03.897
12 17 j_verschue_RAS 2:05.170
13 5 LTB-Racer 2:06.006
14 03 ShepherdRAS 2:06.420
15 39 jsterner 2:07.272
16 42 bluestringer 2:08.556
17 318 joonjoonli 2:10.562

Weather: Clear, 70 F, North 0 mph

Session: Qualifying

P # DRIVER TIME
1 7 Dick-Trickle 1:59.437
2 19 DaveGF 1:59.512
3 27 BOster 2:00.771
4 103 JurjenvanderLelij 2:03.299
5 66 s_brunt 2:03.383
6 1 Mitch_A 2:04.188
7 17 j_verschue_RAS 2:05.137
8 12 Haqsau 2:05.215
9 03 ShepherdRAS 2:05.631
10 4 seery 2:05.715
11 39 jsterner 2:06.698
12 5 LTB-Racer 2:09.942
13 6 Neil__C 2:15.108
14 2 tpaullin 2:18.235
15 15 bfarmer --
16 42 bluestringer --
17 320 TNA Loan --
18 49 ZZBusch --
19 318 joonjoonli --

Weather: Clear, 70 F, North 0 mph

Session: Happy Hour

P # DRIVER TIME
1 103 JurjenvanderLelij 2:02.352
2 4 seery 2:04.498
3 1 Mitch_A 2:04.648
4 2 tpaullin 2:06.669
5 42 bluestringer 2:10.609
6 320 TNA Loan 2:16.826

Weather: Clear, 70 F, North 0 mph

Session: Race
OFFICIAL STANDINGS

F S # DRIVER INTERVAL LAPS LED POINTS STATUS
1 13 6 Neil__C 107.691 38 14 180 Running
2 1 7 Dick-Trickle -18.26 38 24* 180 Running
3 17 320 TNA Loan -21.43 38 0 165 Running
4 3 27 BOster -36.96 38 0 160 Running
5 15 15 bfarmer -1:54.73 38 0 155 Running
6 5 66 s_brunt -1L 37 0 150 Running
7 2 19 DaveGF -1L 37 0 146 Running
8 7 17 j_verschue_RAS -1L 37 0 142 Running
9 18 49 ZZBusch -2L 36 0 138 Running
10 9 03 ShepherdRAS -2L 36 0 134 Running
11 16 42 bluestringer -3L 35 0 130 Running
12 10 4 seery -4L 34 0 127 Running
13 6 1 Mitch_A -15L 23 0 124 Accident
14 8 12 Haqsau -19L 19 0 121 Accident
15 14 2 tpaullin -31L 7 0 118 Accident
16 12 5 LTB-Racer -33L 5 0 115 Accident
17 11 39 jsterner -37L 1 0 112 Gearbox
18 19 318 joonjoonli -37L 1 0 109 Piston
19 4 103 JurjenvanderLelij -38L 0 0 106 Accident

Caution Flags: 0 (0 laps)
Lead Changes: 1 (2 drivers)
Weather: Clear, 70 F, North 0 mph
Pitstop Frequency: 1x

PENALTIES
LAP # INFRACTION PENALTY
2 5 Speeding in pits Drive through pit lane
6 5 Reckless driving DQ'd: Scoring is ended
11 4 Speeding in pits Drive through pit lane
19 12 Speeding in pits Drive through pit lane
25 7 Speeding in pits Drive through pit lane

by **Larr** » Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:57:49

This was pretty much another one-lap-and-out for me, though I tried a couple
of more before parking it.

For anyone wondering why I went screaming past everyone on the first lap, at
the last corner, on the inside lane with brakes locked and tires screaming,
well, you can thank Dakota (my youngest Golden) for that one.

It's hard to lift when a 100 pound dog crawls under your desk and crashes
out on your right foot!

-Larry

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:22:06

I had quite a few incidents. On reviewing the replay I don't think I was at
fault but OTOH some of them were those kind of racing incidents where there
isn't much you can do. One thing I am a little bit peeved about though was
getting tagged from behind by several different people. Not going to point
fingers but I would like to say that it seems to me that if one is still 100
feet behind a guy when he reaches the braking zone that one is not close
enough to attempt a pass. That happened to me more than once, someone who
was not nearly close enough tried to dive bomb me going into 13, and they
ended up putting me off the track. That really shouldn't happen. I'm not
really mad because it turns out those guys had a pretty bad race themselves.
The only reason I bring it up is because I think people need to exercise a
little more patience at these kind of tracks. We can have close racing
without the incidents if people will take the time to set up a pass
properly.

by **Larr** » Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:52:57

I think a some of this comes from the use of Anti-Lock brakes. NR2003 has
the worst implementation of ABS I've ever seen.

I toyed with it considerably during my practice days for this race due to
the extreme tire wear issues, and decided that it was too risky for this
exact reason.

-Larry

> I had quite a few incidents. On reviewing the replay I don't think I was
at
> fault but OTOH some of them were those kind of racing incidents where
there
> isn't much you can do. One thing I am a little bit peeved about though
was
> getting tagged from behind by several different people. Not going to
point
> fingers but I would like to say that it seems to me that if one is still
100
> feet behind a guy when he reaches the braking zone that one is not close
> enough to attempt a pass. That happened to me more than once, someone who
> was not nearly close enough tried to dive bomb me going into 13, and they
> ended up putting me off the track. That really shouldn't happen. I'm not
> really mad because it turns out those guys had a pretty bad race
themselves.
> The only reason I bring it up is because I think people need to exercise a
> little more patience at these kind of tracks. We can have close racing
> without the incidents if people will take the time to set up a pass
> properly.

> > This was pretty much another one-lap-and-out for me, though I tried a
> couple
> > of more before parking it.

> > For anyone wondering why I went screaming past everyone on the first
lap,
> at
> > the last corner, on the inside lane with brakes locked and tires
> screaming,
> > well, you can thank Dakota (my youngest Golden) for that one.

> > It's hard to lift when a 100 pound dog crawls under your desk and
crashes
> > out on your right foot!

> > -Larry

by ZZ » Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:29:05

I was surprised at the tire wear. It's surprising because the tires are
almost never in contact with the road.
15 Laps and my tires were so slippery, I had to stop. I think pit speed of
35 mph was quite silly. Let's check that on the next two tracks, ok boys?

Who picked these tracks anyway? Next road course season let's put a vote up
on RSC forums, ok?

--
Richard "ZZ" Busch

Member:
Screamers Racing League
OAO
CORS
MARA TransAm
RASCAR
GPL Rank + 17.415
MoGPL Rank + 318.586
N2002 Rank + 7.695
TransAm Rank ??

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:53:58

I honestly like the track. There were a lot of other issues, but once I got
a rhythm going the track started to be a lot of fun. AFAIK high tire wear
happens at this track in real life too. I think there were primarily two
big problems. First we weren't able to settle on a setup with which
everybody felt comfortable, and even that got picked very late, forcing
people to adapt in the last few days before the race. Secondly the "ideal
race line" for this track is incorrect. Not my opinion (I'm no expert) but
based on real life in-car footage and discussions of the track I have read
in books the race line was wrong, which meant a lot of people were trying to
drive a non-ideal line, and a very uncomfortable one at that. In particular
the line through most of the closely connected turns was not the way it is
driven in real life, and that is exactly where people were having trouble.
I tried to drive the correct line and to the degree that I was able to do it
the track felt a lot more comfortable.

by **Mitch_** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 01:55:01

I did ZZ.

And no I hadnt run some of these tracks.

What some of you seem to keep forgetting is that this is an experimental
"Winter" series. We said that from the outset that we were going to
experiment with a few things that we never would during the cup season. We
did and we've learned allot from this experience.

When we first made the RASCAR change I'd hoped we could use a more
democratic process to decide issues like this. We tried it and it failed
miserably. All we ended up with was 8-10 guys each with their own ideas
that none of which ever seemed to materialize into anything other than talk.
If you feel strongly about something then bring it up. We try as hard as we
can to be as fair as possible to everyone.

Mitch

silly. Let's check that on the next two tracks, ok boys?

by **Mitch_** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 01:55:06

One thing I want to bring up Hal after reading this.

WE DONT RACE TO THE FIRST CORNER...... You and S_Brunt both made extrememly
dangerous moves that were ILLEGAL on the start passing no less than 3 cars
each before we reached the kink. Rules violations. If you arent clear on
the rules at this point then we have a problem. If youre not sure then ASK
but this is the last time I see this before action will be taken.

Youre complaining about guys making mistakes while passing yet in my eyes
that start manouvre you and Steve made was much worse as it broke the rules.
This isnt a pickup race.

We dont have many rules and what rules we do have were pretty lax about but
this kinda ***has to stop.

We have guys going into lap1 T1 like its the last fn lap of the race and the
rules were put in place to stop this. I didnt make up the rule alone. Its
an agreed upon rule and must be obeyed period.

We have a couple guys that are just showing up occasionally and racing like
the OLD RASCAR. If you cant drive with respect to other drivers then dont
show up for RASCAR races.

This may sound like Im pointing a finger Hal but Im not. This is for ALL
drivers.

Mitch

> I had quite a few incidents. On reviewing the replay I don't think I was
at
> fault but OTOH some of them were those kind of racing incidents where
there
> isn't much you can do. One thing I am a little bit peeved about though
was
> getting tagged from behind by several different people. Not going to
point
> fingers but I would like to say that it seems to me that if one is still
100
> feet behind a guy when he reaches the braking zone that one is not close
> enough to attempt a pass. That happened to me more than once, someone who
> was not nearly close enough tried to dive bomb me going into 13, and they
> ended up putting me off the track. That really shouldn't happen. I'm not
> really mad because it turns out those guys had a pretty bad race
themselves.
> The only reason I bring it up is because I think people need to exercise a
> little more patience at these kind of tracks. We can have close racing
> without the incidents if people will take the time to set up a pass
> properly.

> > This was pretty much another one-lap-and-out for me, though I tried a
> couple
> > of more before parking it.

> > For anyone wondering why I went screaming past everyone on the first
lap,
> at
> > the last corner, on the inside lane with brakes locked and tires
> screaming,
> > well, you can thank Dakota (my youngest Golden) for that one.

> > It's hard to lift when a 100 pound dog crawls under your desk and
crashes
> > out on your right foot!

> > -Larry

by **Jan Verschuere** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 02:07:32

Seconded. On the other hand some of the drivers don't get a lot of practise
at road racing and both track and setup were not conductive to straight,
controlled braking.

BTW: the incident at Le Mans I accused Brian Oster of, was a practise
incident. So that was a little uncalled for and I apologise.

Jan.
=---

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 02:28:46

Point taken. I remember some discussion about this but I didn't think it
had ever been settled. And it looked to me like people were racing to the
first corner on the first start so I didn't question it. Still, I should
have known better. I wondered why the pace wasn't picking up after it went
green on the restart. Total brain fade. I apologize to all.

by **spar** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 02:47:42

I viewed the replay and I have to take exception to your accusation. I don't
see how I could have done a cleaner start. Please fill me in on what I did
wrong. I qualified 5th and entered the 1st corner in 5th. I did pass the 103
car on the outside going into the turn because his slow speed made it safer
to pass. I feel I left plenty of room. To say I passed 3 cars before the 1st
turn is just plain not true.

Steve

by ZZ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:25:06

I did ZZ.

And no I hadnt run some of these tracks.

--------------------------
Sorry Mitch, I was just asking, not accusing.

--
Richard "ZZ" Busch

Member:
Screamers Racing League
OAO
CORS
MARA TransAm
RASCAR
GPL Rank + 17.415
MoGPL Rank + 318.586
N2002 Rank + 7.695
TransAm Rank ??

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:25:23

Steve,

On a different subject, please take a look at the replay of our incident on
lap 2 from my***pit view. From my point of view your car disappears off
to my left before the bridge, that's why I thought it was safe to come
through. Then it appears like you came across and chopped me. That's what
I saw during the race and I didn't know any better until I watched the
replay. I just watched it from your point of view and I never disappear
from your mirror the whole time. From your point of view it looks like I
was behind you and not giving you room. No doubt you were pissed and I
apologize if that's what you thought happened. Again please look at it from
my***pit and I think it will be clear why I thought it was safe to pass.
To me it's just one of those racing things, I hope you can see it that way
too.

by **Eldre** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:52:21

>I was surprised at the tire wear. It's surprising because the tires are
>almost never in contact with the road.

Almost never in contact? What does THAT mean - you're always on the grass?

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Member
Screamers Racing League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
ChallengeRank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH in progress
N2k3 rank:in progress

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Mitch_** » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 04:22:50

I dont have the replay Steve so what I said is based solely on what I saw
from my position. I saw two yellow cars and tried to judge whom it was on
my F2 screen. I came to the conclusion I did based on this info I had. I
didnt know at that point where either of you actually started but I know it
was either to my right or behind and you both passed myself and Jurjen.

It isn't just about a "SAFE" pass. Its about MAKING the pass at the point
you did. I know its a PITA for guys to slow down on the start and we end up
just watching the leaders just pull away. Thats the way it has to be or
else we'll continue with the first corner of the first lap pile ups. If you
want to get up in the field on the first turn then qual better :)

All I want is everyone to line up staggered .5 behind the guy in front of
you and slowly increase speed based on whats happening in front of you. If
the guy directly in front of you slows YOU ALSO MUST SLOW until weve gotten
through the first 2-3 corners on RR and T1 on SS.

What happened on Sat is the field bunched up a bit going into T1 as is
normal and quite a few of us slowed as the rules state (to be safe), both
you and Hal took advantage of that rule and made illegal passes on the
others. Maybe it wasnt totally unsafe for you but it made it unsafe for
everyone else around as we all had to mash the brakes and try to find a spot
to fit as yall are 2-3 wide going into a very tight corner for no reason.

Mitch

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