rec.autos.simulators

RASCAR Sebring Results

Mitch_

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Mitch_ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 04:24:08

I think he meant that the tires bounce so much on those fake bumps that they
rarely contact the ashpalt :)




> >I was surprised at the tire wear. It's surprising because the tires are
> >almost never in contact with the road.

> Almost never in contact?  What does THAT mean - you're always on the
grass?

> Eldred
> --
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> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Mitch_

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Mitch_ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 05:30:28

no apology needed.  believe me Ive been kicking myself for picking htat
track :)


Haqsa

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Haqsa » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 05:23:28

Mitch, you definitely need to look at the replay from a couple different
vantage points.  You and Jurjen were way off pace, a whole line of cars
ended up going around you.  You guys slowed but the outside line did not.
You even went outside on Jurjen yourself right in the middle of the turn.
Granted I broke the rules and I will keep that in mind next time, but it
appears that even you thought it was reasonable to make a pass in that
situation.

And btw when did it become "the first 2-3 corners"?  In your previous post
you said "WE DONT RACE TO THE FIRST CORNER".  This kind of confusion over
the rules is not helping.  The discussion thread on the RASCAR site never
came to a clear conclusion, and this thread is not clearing things up
either.  I'm not trying to make excuses, I know what I did was wrong, but I
am trying to explain why these things happen - it is not clear yet exactly
what the rule is.

Also some exceptions need to be allowed for when someone is clearly off
pace.  Mechanical failures happen, as they did to me from the very start at
LeMans.  There should be room for a judgement call for when it is okay to go
around someone.  I was not at full throttle when I went around you guys, I
was frankly taking it pretty easy.  In RASF1 we tried the no-passing until
T1 rule a couple of times, but we also said right up front that if someone
blows the start, go around him.  Seemed to work okay.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm perfectly willing to obey the rules as long as I
know what they are.  Right now that does not seem clear.


Mitch_

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Mitch_ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:01:52

Upon further review Steve I take back what I said about you being unsafe or
making an illegal pass.  Hal has already taken responsibility and his action
may have contributed to Steve's decision at that moment.   Sorry Steve for
pointing a finger too hastily and great racin ya after the first lap mess :)

Mitch


> I dont have the replay Steve so what I said is based solely on what I saw
> from my position.  I saw two yellow cars and tried to judge whom it was on
> my F2 screen.  I came to the conclusion I did based on this info I had.  I
> didnt know at that point where either of you actually started but I know
it
> was either to my right or behind and you both passed myself and Jurjen.

> It isn't just about a "SAFE" pass.  Its about MAKING the pass at the point
> you did.  I know its a PITA for guys to slow down on the start and we end
up
> just watching the leaders just pull away.  Thats the way it has to be or
> else we'll continue with the first corner of the first lap pile ups.  If
you
> want to get up in the field on the first turn then qual better :)

> All I want is everyone to line up staggered .5 behind the guy in front of
> you and slowly increase speed based on whats happening in front of you.
If
> the guy directly in front of you slows YOU ALSO MUST SLOW until weve
gotten
> through the first 2-3 corners on RR and T1 on SS.

> What happened on Sat is the field bunched up a bit going into T1 as is
> normal and quite a few of us slowed as the rules state (to be safe), both
> you and Hal took advantage of that rule and made illegal passes on the
> others.  Maybe it wasnt totally unsafe for you but it made it unsafe for
> everyone else around as we all had to mash the brakes and try to find a
spot
> to fit as yall are 2-3 wide going into a very tight corner for no reason.

> Mitch



> > I viewed the replay and I have to take exception to your accusation. I
> don't
> > see how I could have done a cleaner start. Please fill me in on what I
did
> > wrong. I qualified 5th and entered the 1st corner in 5th. I did pass the
> 103
> > car on the outside going into the turn because his slow speed made it
> safer
> > to pass. I feel I left plenty of room. To say I passed 3 cars before the
> 1st
> > turn is just plain not true.

> > Steve

Mitch_

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Mitch_ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:18:19

Problem arises on these RR if we say T1 then guys dive bomb on the 2nd
corner :) so were just trying to get everyone to show some respect for
fellow drivers, especially the first lap.  Why can't we just say take it ez
on the entire first lap without getting into absolute specifics of which
corner?   I mean if a guys screws up and goes off track then pass him if its
safe but dont force the issue till the field spreads out "JUST A BIT" is
all.  All were asking is that when you see a situation like that developing
rather than contribute to it lift and stay behind the guy that out qualed
you and if everyone else does we wont have a bunch of rear ended cars
flipping uncontrollably :)  If youre faster you will get that spot back, why
does it need to be L1-T1 of a 50 lap race?

Im mostly frustrated because we have to keep restarting every week after a
lap 1 T1 multi car pileup.  I REALLY hate to restart once the wheels are
turnin but like others have said were in this for fun.

Mitch


John Simmon

RASCAR Sebring Results

by John Simmon » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:33:05



***in-A-dittybag, Mitch - you sound a lot like I did back when the
defication came in contact with the rotating ocillator...

Here's some things I learned about running leagues (before RASCAR):

0) A democracy just doesn't work - you're there to run things and keep
folks' egos under your boot, not to be politicaly correct to every
swingin'*** that thinks he wants to take over and run things with you
as their butt-puppet.

1) There aren't enough people voicing their opinions to make it worth
your while to even ask for opinions.

2) Nobody will like your decision no longer put it up for a vote,
despite the obvious apathy by the majority of the participants, or the
fact that some folks just feel the need to harangue you into doing it
their way (the latter group can be a real pain in the ass and ultimately
a destructive force in a league if not dealt with swiftly and harshly).

3) You end up being a target of criticism, and being accused of being a
dictator because you don't appear to "care about anyone else's
opinions".  No amount of reminders (gentle or otherwise) that you gave
them plenty of chances to participate in the voting will jog their
memories.

4) These people stayed/joined on their own accord - you owe them nothing
except a place in the roster.

And here's one I learned IN RASCAR:

5) If trouble-makers won't quit, kick them out with much fanfare.

spar

RASCAR Sebring Results

by spar » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:51:31

Thanks Mitch,

We did indeed have an excellent and enjoyable battle going there for much of
the race. I wondered what happened to slow you down. I know the feeling. In
the second 1/2 of the race I fried my left front in an avoidance maneuver
and then lost 3rd gear. Overall it was a decent race.

Steve

Eldre

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Eldre » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:28:43



>WE DONT RACE TO THE FIRST CORNER......  You and S_Brunt both made extrememly
>dangerous moves that were ILLEGAL on the start passing no less than 3 cars
>each before we reached the kink.  Rules violations.  If you arent clear on
>the rules at this point then we have a problem.

I'm glad you said that - I hadn't realized that you now had a "no passing"
rule...
But how do you deal with the fact that some people make *lousy* starts, even
though they may have qualified higher?  The cars behind might lose 5 seconds or
more by the time you get to the backstretch...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Member
Screamers Racing League
IICC League
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Hist. +82.34  MoH in progress
N2k3 rank:in progress

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grub

RASCAR Sebring Results

by grub » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:56:33

Ahhhh, the ole John Simmons. Wondered what became of ya. Looks like you been
a lurkin here like myself.
Nice worm. Wonder if you will get any bites?
Hows that hand doing? I pulled a John Simmons on my right index finger about
a month ago. First time I ever amputated a part of my body. I hope it will
be my last.
That was my first mistake. My second was going to the emergency room and
sitting by all those sick people for 4 hours while bleeding all my ***
out. Must have lost at least a pint. Ended up catching a cold from he$$ that
led into pneumonia. Almost done the ole grub in. I'm still coughing up some
chunks that looks like green slime. The taste isn't all that bad though.
Kinda salty. I shouldn't be swallowing it though because it gives me the
monkey ***("the runs").
Well time to soak the stub in some hyd-peroxide and down some more
pain-killers. I got to watch that stuff. Makes me see some weird stuff.
grub




> > I did ZZ.

> > And no I hadnt run some of these tracks.

> > When we first made the RASCAR change I'd hoped we could use a more
> > democratic process to decide issues like this.  We tried it and it
failed
> > miserably.  All we ended up with was 8-10 guys each with their own ideas
> > that none of which ever seemed to materialize into anything other than
talk.
> > If you feel strongly about something then bring it up.  We try as hard
as we
> > can to be as fair as possible to everyone.

> ***in-A-dittybag, Mitch - you sound a lot like I did back when the
> defication came in contact with the rotating ocillator...

> Here's some things I learned about running leagues (before RASCAR):

> 0) A democracy just doesn't work - you're there to run things and keep
> folks' egos under your boot, not to be politicaly correct to every
> swingin'*** that thinks he wants to take over and run things with you
> as their butt-puppet.

> 1) There aren't enough people voicing their opinions to make it worth
> your while to even ask for opinions.

> 2) Nobody will like your decision no longer put it up for a vote,
> despite the obvious apathy by the majority of the participants, or the
> fact that some folks just feel the need to harangue you into doing it
> their way (the latter group can be a real pain in the ass and ultimately
> a destructive force in a league if not dealt with swiftly and harshly).

> 3) You end up being a target of criticism, and being accused of being a
> dictator because you don't appear to "care about anyone else's
> opinions".  No amount of reminders (gentle or otherwise) that you gave
> them plenty of chances to participate in the voting will jog their
> memories.

> 4) These people stayed/joined on their own accord - you owe them nothing
> except a place in the roster.

> And here's one I learned IN RASCAR:

> 5) If trouble-makers won't quit, kick them out with much fanfare.

bluestringe

RASCAR Sebring Results

by bluestringe » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:33:44


Nice to hear from you Grub. Sorry to hear about your misfortune, was
wondering where you went. We have missed rubbing fenders with ya. Hope you
get well and get back to racing with us soon.

bluestringer

Mitch_

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Mitch_ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:57:01

I wish I had an easy answer Eldred.  We have to pick which of the two evils
is more unfair, getting involved in a L1-T1 incident possibly ruining quite
a few cars and ruining drivers day OR try to qual better and hope the guy in
front of you and in front of him etc can get a decent start cleanly and then
race like hell to make up any lost time either on track or with strategy.
We race 55% races for TA.  If youre faster you have plenty of time to make
up 5+ seconds right?  Heck we need handicap some of these freaks 30 seconds
just ot make it semi-interestin :)

Mitch


you said that - I hadn't realized that you now had a "no passing"

Mitch_

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Mitch_ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:01:51

Oh man Grub thats too fn bad.  Our sympathies go out to ya bud.

Hope to cya on the track soon Nubb errrr GRUB  <g> someone had to go first
hehe.

Mitch


Mitch_

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Mitch_ » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:24:18

Now thats a scary thought John :)

 Seriously though Im not saying Im in charge of anything.  Any decision goes
through both Dave and I then we decide if we should put it up to everyone
for the final decision.  One thing to think about though Dave and I havent
made many decisions alone since the original basic ruleset.   The issues
currently plaguing RASCAR re: setups/restarts is mainly because of the
limitations of the TA mod and basic setups and some over anxious drivers
neither of which is as big a deal as its coming out to be.  When cup rolls
around its back to biz as usual.

As I hope Ive shown I agree with some of your ideas but still fundamentally
disagree on ownership/administration of RASCAR.  Thats ok though,
disagreement is sometimes good.

Although we do control the invite list I value the importance of this
responsibilty and would never abuse it because of a personality conflict.
To this point I dont think weve ever turned away anyone have we?  Marco64
MAYBE lol.  If someone wants to race in RASCAR and follows the procedure,
drives respectfully (is slower than me j/k) will be put on the IL without
hesitation.

We just want to have fun racing.  In this group we have groups of skilsets
that seem to migrate to each other well giving everyone someone to race
against.  Isnt that on par with the original concept?

Mitch

sound a lot like I did back when the

Brian Oste

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Brian Oste » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:34:23


>I think a some of this comes from the use of Anti-Lock brakes.  NR2003 has
>the worst implementation of ABS I've ever seen.

I view this as a good thing.  :)

Brian Oster

Brian Oste

RASCAR Sebring Results

by Brian Oste » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:37:50

I liked the track also.   I didn't have any tire wear too speak of
(until I looped it one lap, but that is to be expected).  They did
start to get slick around lap 20, but you just had to be easier on the
brakes and gas.  How many of you with tire wear issues were using
driving aids?  The patch did say that it would excelerate tire wear
when using driving aids.

Brian Oster



>I honestly like the track.  There were a lot of other issues, but once I got
>a rhythm going the track started to be a lot of fun.  AFAIK high tire wear
>happens at this track in real life too.  I think there were primarily two
>big problems.  First we weren't able to settle on a setup with which
>everybody felt comfortable, and even that got picked very late, forcing
>people to adapt in the last few days before the race.  Secondly the "ideal
>race line" for this track is incorrect.  Not my opinion (I'm no expert) but
>based on real life in-car footage and discussions of the track I have read
>in books the race line was wrong, which meant a lot of people were trying to
>drive a non-ideal line, and a very uncomfortable one at that.  In particular
>the line through most of the closely connected turns was not the way it is
>driven in real life, and that is exactly where people were having trouble.
>I tried to drive the correct line and to the degree that I was able to do it
>the track felt a lot more comfortable.



>> I was surprised at the tire wear. It's surprising because the tires are
>> almost never in contact with the road.
>> 15 Laps and my tires were so slippery, I had to stop. I think pit speed of
>> 35 mph was quite silly. Let's check that on the next two tracks, ok boys?

>> Who picked these tracks anyway? Next road course season let's put a vote
>up
>> on RSC forums, ok?

>> --
>> Richard "ZZ" Busch

>> Member:
>> Screamers Racing League
>> OAO
>> CORS
>> MARA TransAm
>> RASCAR
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>> MoGPL Rank + 318.586
>> N2002 Rank + 7.695
>> TransAm Rank  ??


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