rec.autos.simulators

You may have invited a few (well, no - many) flamers, but let me be the
first to tell you that there are a lot of people that love CART Precision
Racing (like me - but GPL's my baby now), and just as many that hate it.
Therefore, I will give you an URL so you can enjoy the sim with extra
tracks, updated cars, and cool setups.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Have fun!

- John P. Wilson :|:
- Downshift http://www.racesimcentral.net/
- Growing Fan of Sierra's "Grand Prix Legends" 1967 Computer Racing
Simulation

Sad? Indubitably. When someone decries others for putting down the
opinions of others, while at the same time doing the same thing
himself. A sort of self-served Q.E.D. if you like.

Though some do cite the MS connection as a problem of CPR, in reality
it has flaws that go way beyond such trivial matters.

It has its good points (sensation of speed, sound, as you mentioned),
but being "1,000 times better than ICR2" is not one of them. The way
the car handles is awful, and how it compares to ICR2 in that regard
depends upon personal preference more than anything.

Pre-GPL I found N2 to be most convincing, then SODA, then ICR2 & N2,
with F1RS and CPR bringing up the rear. Everyone else's mileage will
vary on this, and 100 requests will bring 100 different answers.

Cheers!
John

% That CPR is so universally disliked in this NG should tell you something
% about the mentality of the people here. Its problem is nothing more than
% that it's a MS product. Sad isn't it.

MS has nothing to do with the "dislike" in this newsgroup.  Sure it was
easy to pick on "MickeySoft" (all too easy), but the remainder of your
post truly explains why it was diskliked by many in this newsgroup.

% As a sim, CPR has a lot going for it - not much else (until GPL) would give
% you as good a sensation of power and speed; you can feel that 900 odd bhp
% under your right foot. In the end it is frustratingly flawed: graphics are
% not good enough to see a long way ahead and the AI is not up to scratch. I
% don't have any multiplayer experience on it.

% A shame because in so many ways (car handling, visceral sensations) it was a
% thousand times better than ICR2 but it badly needed to be in its second
% incarnation by now to put right those glaring faults.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I only have two racing sims, CPR and N2.  After I use CPR, I can't use N2
because the cars feel so much less responsive in accelleration, braking, and
handling.  N2 is fine if I use that first, but the instant response of the
IndyCars makes them so much more fun and challenging to drive.  Despite the
many flaws that others have pointed out for CPR, I have a lot of fun with
it, and I'm still improving my laptimes at all the tracks.  One thing no one
complains about with CPR is the sound - it sounds just like the real thing.
It's really amazing in that regard.  I like N2 as well and have fun with it,
but it pales in e***ment compared with CPR, IMO.  The AI is better in N2
in terms of the computer opponents, but the computer drivers will ram into
you fromk behind in both games if you're holding them up.  I must admit that
I like CART racing more than NASCAR in real life as well, and that
undoubtedly biases my opinion in favor of CPR.

As far as CPR having "awful handling," well I don't know.  I've read reviews
from professional racers that have praised the handling and physics, and
then others that were a lot less positive.  To me it seems fairly realistic,
though I admit I've never driven a real open***pit racing car other than a
go-kart.  The laptimes sure are close to what the real CART drivers get at
most of the tracks, so the cars are going pretty much the same speeds on the
CPR tracks that the real cars are going on the real tracks.

--
Bill Jones                 e-mail addresses:


(860) 437-5650     WWW:  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

No, the first criterion by which to judge a sim must be the handling and in
this CPR was a long, long way ahead of ICR2 in providing proper responses to
power and weight transfers. This is not a subjective matter (in other words,
not a matter of opinion). ICR2 provided a much better racing environment
(this is subjective although you could probably quantify it). I'm not sure
what to make of someone who actually thinks that ICR2 cars handled
realistically - they're not FWD and they have more than 80 bhp.

This would be in the way CPR properly models the tyre contact patch
such that I could race across the dirt and grass in fifth gear? Or
perhaps the way that when you gently, ever so gently, caress the wall
at a very small angle of incidence the steering leaps instantly to
full opposite lock? Go on, tell me that such an effect is a result of
the physics engine and not something canned in to paper over a flaw.

The flaws in CPR are many and varied, and on the basis of handling
alone cannot be held up to be empirically better than ICR2. If that is
your opinion I can certainly accept it, but as a statement of fact is
unproven and, IMO, very wrong.

I have similar feelings about someone who thinks that cars do hiccup
furiously at speeds below 30mph and leap to opposite lock when
touching a wall. Both sims have flaws, so what? No sim can ever handle
realistically, there are simply too many aspects to be modelled. All
we can have is an interpretation of reality which can be achieved
either by development of an accurate engine which responds accurately
to real numbers and inputs, or by cobbling together a fudge to give a
sensation of same. What that means is that if a simulation matches
your image of what that reality must be like you will think it is good
'un, if it doesn't then it will be classes as bad, or at least worse.
This interpretation is made without knowing what is actually modelled
and without knowing how it is being done.

Cheers!
John

By making the above statement, you're agreeing with John K. His statement
doesn't apply directly to you, but apparently you agree with him. Anyone who
believes MS hasn't been good for the PC industry is more than a misguided
fool. I'd say a stone cold moron is a better description.

David G Fisher
DmndDave

Well John, I'm afraid that neither statement is true of CPR. Unless of
course you're referring to the speed-lane rev limiter and hitting the wall
of an oval at somewhere north of 200kph. You surely wouldn't be doing that,
would you? Would you John? John?

<...>

How is the way the car handles so awful? It is certainly an awful
shock after driving the comparatively unresponsive, mushy ICR2 model-
in ICR2 the fastest way to go straight is to "just floor it"- in CPR,
if you try that, you "sit and spin"- which seems a lot more realistic
to me.

And braking too in CPR seems much more realistic.

But I think the AI is pretty abominable compared to ICR2 or N2;
although it shines over ICR2 in a couple of minor points (none of ICR2
or N2's unnaturally sudden AI manouvers that will take you out at a
moments notice)

I never did buy GPL because the demo ran so poorly on my machine
(crashed it, actually). perhaps the final version wouldn't- but here's
a case where a demo scared me off.

Are you racing in Professional Mode, or Intermediate Mode? Here's what
the FAQ says:

[start quote FAQ]

(13) Q. Is the way the car handles on sand and grass different
when you're driving at the Professional skill level?

A. Yes. When you're driving at the Professional skill level, you
can expect a challenging and slippery ride when you go off on
grass or gravel. In interviews, real-world CART drivers often
compare driving on sand and grass to "being on ice," and that
sensation is included in the game for those who are skilled
enough to drive at the Professional Skill level. If you can't
handle the challenge, you may want to consider driving under
the Rookie or Intermediate skill levels.

[end quote FAQ]

I was surprised how different each mode is from each other- I figured
they would all be the same, with only different "Helps" available. But
apparently, each mode has it's own driving model. Seems sort of an odd
approach.

<...>

Pro mode with all help off - my starting point in any sim.

Cheers!
John

Hmmm, this is known as an "own shaft" - blowing your own theory right
out the water.

Of course not - I know it, you know it, everyone reading knows it. As
regulars here will know I believe CPR to be very good in many
respects, as with any sim it's when the zealots stop extolling it's
virtues and try to paper over the cracks that they begin to look
foolish. Enjoy CPR for what it is, praise it's virtues, acknowledge
it's flaws.

Drive along a straight as slowly as you like, now move gently toward a
wall. Touch aforementioned wall with steering straight ahead - now
come back and tell me the steering doesn't wildly leap to opposite
lock. Beyond that, consider if your road car, an Indycar, a pedal car,
any car at all behaves in this manner. If you STILL believe neither
statement is true then it's time for you to move up a couple of
dioptres...

Cheers!
John