rec.autos.simulators

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

Chad Spark

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Chad Spark » Fri, 14 May 2004 07:46:56

More info...

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

about physics model:

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Greenawalt: Forza Motorsport is a pure simulation engine wrapped in an
accessible motorsport-based game world. With realistic assists, fantastic
tactile control, and player feedback, gamers will be able to pick up and
play. However, because of the depth of the physics, the player can continue
to learn about the car and travel the path of mastery as a racing car
driver. Every car is a new experience. Weight and friction transition
realistically, allowing great racers to express themselves through their
driving. Meanwhile, we've employed realistic traction and anti-spin assists
that will allow inexperienced drivers to compete and be successful.

Our tire and suspension model is extremely realistic. We partnered with Toyo
tires to get real-world data on production and race tires to model in the
game. Our tire model exhibits pressure, wear, heat, and load sensitivity.
Tire friction is also affected by the *** groove and marbles on the road.

We worked with an engineer from Ferrari's F1 program to completely simulate
real-world suspensions. When configured to simulate a double "A" arm
suspension, the track decreases as the suspension compresses and negative
camber is introduced. In turn, the camber and weight affect the tire heat
and thus pressure. Most consoles simply do not have the power to compute
what we're computing for the physics and still render a game.

-----------------------------------------------------------

influences:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Xbox.com: Were there any racing games that inspired your team? If so, what
were they?

Greenawalt: Obviously, the GT series has been a huge influence on this team.
Personally speaking, the original Gran Turismo was the only reason I bought
my first console. Without that game, several of us probably wouldn't have
become involved in this industry. Polyphony has created a great series.

I'm sure many will see the influence of SEGA's classic Ferrari 355 coin-op
game in our E3 presentation. We have a 355 machine with a triple-screen set
up in the lobby of our office. The art lead and I still love to play the old
Sportcar GT game for the PC. It was a great blend of simulation and
accessible fun. It also had really cool cars and real-world tracks.

A few team members participate in PC online racing sim leagues for Papyrus'
Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003. These games have a small, but
fanatical following. Some of these communities have created third-party
telemetry and replay analyzer programs as well as huge content mod packs.
Recently, one of my buddies showed me an online league based on a version of
F1 2004 that was mod-ed to have FIA GT and ALMS cars and tracks. That looked
pretty fun . but extremely challenging. These hard-core communities are a
better source of inspiration than any game could be.

-----------------------------------------------------------

about AI:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Xbox.com: Realistic artificial intelligence seems difficult to achieve in
games. How is the development team ensuring the quality of the single-player
experience?

Greenawalt: Everyone talks about A.I. in racing games. Rather than spitting
out features, let me simply frame our approach and let you draw your own
conclusions. You know when I was saying that we've assembled a team of
all-stars? I wasn't kidding. We actually have several high-level developers
working on our A.I. alone. Our main A.I. developer is new to games, but
incredibly experienced in A.I. He's a PhD A.I. developer from Microsoft's
research division. In the past, he's worked on robots and learning A.I.
systems. He's teaming with our research division in Cambridge, England, to
approach A.I. from a completely different angle.

It's really cool to see a group approaching this problem from a completely
new angle. Rather than giving the A.I. different car physics, a predestined
spline, and random seed to mix it up, these guys are creating thinking A.I.
that drive Forza Motorsport's remarkably complex physics engine. Even our
A.I. difficulty levels are based on learning artificial intelligence.
Lower-difficulty A.I. makes human-like mistakes, such as late braking and
late apex-ing.

It's sort of hypnotic to watch the A.I. learn. I'll tune a new car and give
it over to the developer to train the A.I. driver. The A.I. driver then
takes over the car and starts putting together laps. The laps get better and
better as the A.I. tests out the new car's limits. After a couple of laps,
the A.I. is putting together really fast times in the exact same car physics
the player drives. What's even more amazing is that the A.I. doesn't have to
relearn on other tracks. It just applies what it knows about the car's
abilities and starts churning out hot-laps on the new track.

If you don't work in this industry, you might not understand how
unprecedented this is. Every other racing game I've seen has used slightly
different physics and predestined splines for the A.I. The artificial
intelligence in Forza Motorsport is truly intelligent.

-----------------------------------------------------------

damage:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Xbox.com: How will physics and damage modeling affect gameplay?

Greenawalt: The on-track experience is a simulation. However, we have
customizable levels of difficulty, in the form of damage, assists, and
opponent skill, that allow you to alter your experience.

Forza Motorsport features performance-affecting damage. However, realistic
damage can be extremely punishing. Therefore, we've integrated damage into
the difficulty system. You can play with fully simulated damage, limited
damage, or simply cosmetic damage.

Challenging yourself will increase the rewards for winning. With the
difficulty settings at default, I expect most players to be able to pick up
and play the game successfully. Meanwhile, they are encouraged and armed to
grow their racing skills.

-----------------------------------------------------------

customization:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Xbox.com: To what extent will players be able to customize their vehicles?

Greenawalt: The upgrades fall into three buckets: appearance upgrades,
performance upgrades, and performance tuning.

The cars, from more than 60 manufacturers, include some hot sport compact
cars like the Dodge SRT4 and Nissan 350Z. We've licensed real-world body
kits for the hot tuner cars. These are the appearance upgrades. Based on the
number of kits we've created, we have several billion possible visual car
permutations. Of course, we are a simulator, so each of these kits has
weight and aero components to them as well. We also have an extremely
powerful paint job editor. This editor allows you to place decals and vinyl
primitives all over the car. You're not limited to specific shapes and
locations, so you can go ahead and freestyle.

As for tuning and performance upgrades, let's just say, you've never been
able to do the level of tuning available in Forza Motorsport-ignition
timing, boost pressure, fuel ratio, not to mention the standard tire
pressure, camber, caster, toe, gear ratios . In the upgrade category, Forza
Motorsport includes everything you need to transform your stock performance
car into an absolute track monster. And, of course, all of the parts are
based directly on real-world upgrades you'd find on the track, from
cat-bypass and cat-back exhaust to centrifugal superchargers, large surface
area intercoolers, cold air intake, and triple-plate
clutch.-----------------------------------------------------------

Internet Use

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Internet Use » Fri, 14 May 2004 09:26:50


> More info...

> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

I think we're the only ones e***d about this title.  A year ago, it
appeared as if sim racing was on it's way to becoming extinct.  Now we
have GTR and Microsoft undertaking projects that can only be described
as "sim" in nature.  Microsoft may or may not live up to it's promise,
but at least they're acknowledging the genre.  Sony/Polyphony has made
some damn good attempts, but their AI is the worst in the business
(perhaps).  I only hope that FM approaches what's promised!

And on a side note, have the West brothers finished modeling their 1967
Lotus motor home yet?

Haqsa

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Haqsa » Fri, 14 May 2004 09:36:57

Wow.  Let's just hope they can deliver everything they are talking about.


Alan Bernard

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Alan Bernard » Fri, 14 May 2004 10:07:35


Not to change the subject (but I just did :)), but I've been running against
some of your times with RS2 on XBox Live.  Now you must counter.  :)

There are so many real winners on XBox Live that it is hard to race online.
As soon as I get the headset on and hear this limited vocabulary (if you
know what I mean), I'm completely bummed.

Obviously the thing to do is to get a few of us-- the more the merrier-- and
just go for it.  RS2 is a fun game and at least for me getting used to using
a controller instead of a wheel has been rough.  But I'm starting to get the
hang of it.

I started off working through the Amateur career and am now sloughing
through the Pro mode.  Getting better as I go.  The game is pretty
exhilarating.

Maybe I'll see you online in the near future.

Alanb

Chad Spark

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Chad Spark » Fri, 14 May 2004 10:16:13

Guys, check out these amazing shots (3 screens). WOW!

http://www.e3insider.com/photos/photoPax/large/DSC_0018.jpg

http://xrl.us/b2xg

Internet Use

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Internet Use » Fri, 14 May 2004 11:10:53


> Guys, check out these amazing shots (3 screens). WOW!

> http://www.e3insider.com/photos/photoPax/large/DSC_0018.jpg

> http://xrl.us/b2xg

Judging by the pics.... Will I need to buy two additional Xbox's to get
that 3 screen setup?  It really looks like they have an xbox cluster!
My fingers are itching to play this thing.
Haqsa

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Haqsa » Fri, 14 May 2004 11:41:07

Whoops, forgot that Live keeps a record of everything.  I expect the times
weren't that good, I'm still learning the game and still in the slow cars.
But then it sounds like you are in the same boat.  I'll check out your times
when I get a chance. It's hard for me to find the time during the week to
get on Live but I think I will probably be able to get on Friday and
Saturday late.  Most of my times are probably from single player, since I
can squeeze a single player race into a few minutes but once I'm on Live I
like to stay on for a while.

As far as the Live players go, I have found a lot of good guys.  If you run
into a bad race just jump and go somewhere else.  Every time you have a good
race with someone say something friendly to them and then add them to your
friends list.  Odds are that they are looking for clean racers too and will
be glad to add you to their list.  After a while you will have a large list
of trustworthy players and you will be able to find clean races fairly
easily.  The last time I was on Live there were six guys from my friends
list on in various racing games, and that's out of a total of only 20 or so
people on my list.  In the last month or so I haven't had any problems
finding at least one of them on every time I try.

Another *** tip: bookmark this site -
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
You will have to set up a login to use it but once you have it you can see
your friends list from your computer.  That way you can check it without
having to start up the Xbox, TV, hifi, etc. and you can see which friends
are on and what game they are playing.  Big time saver.


Alan Bernard

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Alan Bernard » Fri, 14 May 2004 11:46:06

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Thanks for the link.  I know there are clean racers (and speakers) on Live.
I just haven't spent a lot of time looking for them.  :)

Alanb

Chad Spark

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Chad Spark » Fri, 14 May 2004 13:16:48

Yes, you will. It requires 3 Xbox's. But hey, if you're harcore... ;)



> > Guys, check out these amazing shots (3 screens). WOW!

> > http://www.e3insider.com/photos/photoPax/large/DSC_0018.jpg

> > http://xrl.us/b2xg

> Judging by the pics.... Will I need to buy two additional Xbox's to get
> that 3 screen setup?  It really looks like they have an xbox cluster!
> My fingers are itching to play this thing.

Ruud van Ga

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Ruud van Ga » Fri, 14 May 2004 21:15:22



Cute large plasma's. Now if only they had this platform underneath.
;-)

http://www.racer.nl/temp/orlando1.jpg
http://www.racer.nl/temp/orlando2.jpg

(requires either 1 PC with Parhelia or better 3 or more PC's)

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Dan Leac

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Dan Leac » Sat, 15 May 2004 01:03:57

<Snip, marketing rubbish>
 Sounds like gran tourismo to me. That also had 'super realistic physics'
Fatbo

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Fatbo » Sat, 15 May 2004 04:19:45


True, but no AI to speak of. I was (and to a certain extent, still am) a
huge GT fan. I played GT1 & 2 till the cows came home, but after hearing
that GT3 still had no AI... well I never bothered buying a PS2 to play it.
So if this game actually has raceable AI (I don't play online so AI is very
important to me in any sim I buy), then I guess I'll be buying myself an
XBox.

I'd really pumped about this game! I'd be more than happy if this game is a
GT3 with good AI. Lately I've been thinking of finally getting a console,
and until I heard about this game, it seemed that I would be buying a PS2,
but I'll wait to see what FM has to offer.

Swerv

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Swerv » Sat, 15 May 2004 17:58:24


> I'd really pumped about this game! I'd be more than happy if this
> game is a GT3 with good AI. Lately I've been thinking of finally
> getting a console, and until I heard about this game, it seemed that
> I would be buying a PS2, but I'll wait to see what FM has to offer.

Even if Forza ends up being about the same as GT3 on that front, it'd
probably be worth it to go for the XBox over the PS2.   The XBox
controller, like the Dreamcast's before it, is very well suited to
racing games.   With the PS2, you basically have to use the right analog
stick for gas and brake to get any usable analog control, and by doing
so, you lose all ability to hit both at the same time.   I also find
that people tend to have the stick slightly to the right or left instead
of straight up and down, so you often don't get full braking or throttle
even if you think you do.   The triggers on the XBox controller have a
pretty long throw, are easy to regulate, and are the console equivalent
to split-axis on a pedal set.

'Course, you could always snag an old Dreamcast and a copy of F355
challenge ;)

Steve Smit

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Steve Smit » Sat, 15 May 2004 20:53:23

Or just buy the 900-degree Logitech wheel designed specifically to work with
GT4.



> > I'd really pumped about this game! I'd be more than happy if this
> > game is a GT3 with good AI. Lately I've been thinking of finally
> > getting a console, and until I heard about this game, it seemed that
> > I would be buying a PS2, but I'll wait to see what FM has to offer.

> Even if Forza ends up being about the same as GT3 on that front, it'd
> probably be worth it to go for the XBox over the PS2.   The XBox
> controller, like the Dreamcast's before it, is very well suited to
> racing games.   With the PS2, you basically have to use the right analog
> stick for gas and brake to get any usable analog control, and by doing
> so, you lose all ability to hit both at the same time.   I also find
> that people tend to have the stick slightly to the right or left instead
> of straight up and down, so you often don't get full braking or throttle
> even if you think you do.   The triggers on the XBox controller have a
> pretty long throw, are easy to regulate, and are the console equivalent
> to split-axis on a pedal set.

> 'Course, you could always snag an old Dreamcast and a copy of F355
> challenge ;)

Tony Rickar

More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

by Tony Rickar » Sun, 16 May 2004 04:29:38


> Or just buy the 900-degree Logitech wheel designed specifically to work
with
> GT4.

Heck, my road car doesn't go round 900 degrees - what are we simulating here
the West's transporter?

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