rec.autos.simulators

Oval racing, my point

LL

Oval racing, my point

by LL » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

First of all thank you for your input and congratulations on resisting the
temptation to call me names.

The point is FOR ME that every oval track looks VERY much like another and
if I remember well you have about 20 races per year in NASACR and about 10
of them on ovals, so the thing is :

Isn't it a bit the same to watch a nascar race on an oval track somewhere
and the next oval race 15 days later somewhere else.

Please don't tell me too much about "each oval is different because the
banking is different or because the tarmac doesn't have the same texture"

On TV it all looks very much the same for me when I get the possibility to
look at it, in F1 or any other circuit race every corner is different, VERY
different and therefore it requires (I think) more skill from the driver,
and more strengh (in terms of physical condition).

Also one bad thing about nascar (I think) is that sometimes the "bad guy"
wins by pushing the "good guy" out, since I work in motorsports myself,
doing some truck racing (real trucks in Europe, not pickups like the nascar
trucks) I get this problem all the time when you are working HARD to get a
good setup, the driver is doing his best to go fast and stay on the track
and some *** kicks you out in the last lap.

By "bad guy" on NASCAR I refer to a certain Dale with a number 3 on his
black car...

I understand that for the "show" it is fun to see somebody push somebody
else but this is CAR RACING not boxing or demolition derby...

Once again thank you for your answers, even if we don't agree we can respect
each other's positions here and this is not always the case on the net.

Superdav

Oval racing, my point

by Superdav » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

You have another believer right here. NASCAR is not racing. Watching cars
drive around on an oval seems very monotonous. I cannot see the sport in
this at all. I say put them on a road course and leave them there. Just what
is the sport in " put it to the floor and steer to the left " ?

And why are they called stock cars? There is nothing stock about a stock
car. I have a lot more respect for Touring Car and Rally Car racers than I
ever will for a NASCAR driver.

I raced Supersport and Superbike Suzuki GSXR's for several years and road
courses really show skill. NASCAR just seems to be a freight train going
around and around.

I'll take Schumacher and Colin McCrae over Jeff Gordon anyday.


         http://www.cushdrive.com/

 > First of all thank you for your input and congratulations on resisting
the

Stephen Colbourn

Oval racing, my point

by Stephen Colbourn » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I am English and think that F1 is definately the most interesting sport to
follow with all cars being different and arguably the best drivers in the
world.
BUT when it comes to watching a race live at the track, the OVALS defiantely
have a great advantage. You can be seated and have a view of the whole
track. You will not miss any incident. With 40+ cars racing past the noise
is amazing.
As far as the driver is concerned the ovals require great precision and very
smooth movements combined with ultra quick reactions due to other drivers
mistakes.
F1 requires a keen spectator to walk for miles to get the full enjoyment of
the track. You always seem to be in the wrong place when something happens
F1 is really a hot lap contest until overtaking is required when it almost
becomes a game of nerve.
I think F1 is the better TV sport. Nascar the best live. The two driving
styles are almost totally opposite.
Personally I prefer  F1 for  the drivers personal enjoyment, but I can see
the enjoyment to be gained on an oval. Th difference between a good driver
and bad at an oval is a fraction of a second while at an F1 track it is
between 5 seconds at a short track to several minutes at somewhere like the
Nurburg Ring, really showing the best drivers clearly.
It is much more satisfying to see your lap times drop by this amount.

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Aaron Markham *Kart44

Oval racing, my point

by Aaron Markham *Kart44 » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Well... oval racing can be boring when watching it on TV but when your in the
driver's seat it's anything but boring. You are constantly fighting for
position, and fender rubbing to get up front. Yes "pushing the good guy out"
isn't always fair but those fenders aren't there for nothing:-) Just look at the
BTCC (British Touring Car Championship) they race only on road courses but they
are rougher than NASCAR. All the action they create during a race keeps us fans
"fired up" and makes us want to come back for more. The same goes for NASCAR and
oval racing. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good Formula One race but ever since
Ayrton Senna died, and Mansell and Prost retired it just hasn't been as
exciting.
Thanks,
Aaron Markham *Kart44*

> First of all thank you for your input and congratulations on resisting the
> temptation to call me names.

> The point is FOR ME that every oval track looks VERY much like another and
> if I remember well you have about 20 races per year in NASACR and about 10
> of them on ovals, so the thing is :

> Isn't it a bit the same to watch a nascar race on an oval track somewhere
> and the next oval race 15 days later somewhere else.

> Please don't tell me too much about "each oval is different because the
> banking is different or because the tarmac doesn't have the same texture"

> On TV it all looks very much the same for me when I get the possibility to
> look at it, in F1 or any other circuit race every corner is different, VERY
> different and therefore it requires (I think) more skill from the driver,
> and more strengh (in terms of physical condition).

> Also one bad thing about nascar (I think) is that sometimes the "bad guy"
> wins by pushing the "good guy" out, since I work in motorsports myself,
> doing some truck racing (real trucks in Europe, not pickups like the nascar
> trucks) I get this problem all the time when you are working HARD to get a
> good setup, the driver is doing his best to go fast and stay on the track
> and some *** kicks you out in the last lap.

> By "bad guy" on NASCAR I refer to a certain Dale with a number 3 on his
> black car...

> I understand that for the "show" it is fun to see somebody push somebody
> else but this is CAR RACING not boxing or demolition derby...

> Once again thank you for your answers, even if we don't agree we can respect
> each other's positions here and this is not always the case on the net.

JC

Oval racing, my point

by JC » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

So Martinsville looks the same as Michigan and Indy is the same as Nazareth!

Come on guys!

My advice is get yourself a copy of NASCAR 3, get online and tell me all
NASCAR tracks are the same and NASCAR racing is monotonous.

NASCAR is the most popular racing series in the world (measured by real
people attending events).  400,000 at the Brickyard can't be wrong.  By
guess is that Mr. Gow and the BTCC would love to have a tenth of that
attendance!  12 front line cars - hardly the sign of a healthy series...

Just wait till ASCAR starts up in Britain - then we'll see some real racing!

Just my opinion...


> You have another believer right here. NASCAR is not racing. Watching cars
> drive around on an oval seems very monotonous. I cannot see the sport in
> this at all. I say put them on a road course and leave them there. Just
what
> is the sport in " put it to the floor and steer to the left " ?

> And why are they called stock cars? There is nothing stock about a stock
> car. I have a lot more respect for Touring Car and Rally Car racers than I
> ever will for a NASCAR driver.

> I raced Supersport and Superbike Suzuki GSXR's for several years and road
> courses really show skill. NASCAR just seems to be a freight train going
> around and around.

> I'll take Schumacher and Colin McCrae over Jeff Gordon anyday.


>          http://www.cushdrive.com/

>  > First of all thank you for your input and congratulations on resisting
> the
> > temptation to call me names.

> > The point is FOR ME that every oval track looks VERY much like another
and
> > if I remember well you have about 20 races per year in NASACR and about
10
> > of them on ovals, so the thing is :

> > Isn't it a bit the same to watch a nascar race on an oval track
somewhere
> > and the next oval race 15 days later somewhere else.

> > Please don't tell me too much about "each oval is different because the
> > banking is different or because the tarmac doesn't have the same
texture"

Marc Collin

Oval racing, my point

by Marc Collin » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

There is no question that NASCAR oval racing is not at the same level of
skill or sophistication as CART of F1, but every oval IS different and they
each require different driving skills and techniques to master.

I enjoy WATCHING CART first, then F1 then NASCAR.  I enjoy sim racing NASCAR
equally to the others because, due to the lower skill level involved, I
actually have a chance to be involved in a real race for the whole length of
the race (sweaty palms, etc.).  Performing an awesome GPL flying lap where
every turn and braking point is well executed is far more satisfying than
cutting a bit off my best time of an oval lap in N3, but the racing is much
more accessible.

I was, like you, not interested in watching NASCAR races on TV until AFTER I
got N2...then I realised that there was a lot more skill involved than it
looked like in TV.  It still isn't CART or F1, but it makes for great sim
racing.  Go buy N3 or NL and find out for yourself!!

Marc.


Bob Curti

Oval racing, my point

by Bob Curti » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Dear LL,

Your question (and conclusions) are pretty much the same as asking why anyone
would possibly like to watch Cricket over Baseball -- sort of like saying that
American Baseball requires much more skill than Cricket and is therefore an
inferior sport.

I don't think anyone who knows what they're talking about would argue that F!
drivers are not the best in the world.  They'd better be -- they're driving the
most expensive and fastest vehicles on the planet.  Whether or not F1 is a
"better" sport than any other form of racing is, however, purely subjective.  I
used to think that F1 was an exciting sport.  I don't any more.  It usually ends
up being a parade around ultra-tight, chicane-ridden courses where passing
amongst the frontrunners almost invariably occurs during pit stops.  I still
watch it, but it's just not the same.  I'd rather watch touring cars or
superbikes.

Actually, there are 34 races in Winston Cup and only two are run on road courses
(at Watkins Glen and Sears Point)

I know you don't want to be told, but facts are facts.  Except for a couple of
breaks during the season, races are run every week.  The ovals do vary
drastically.  The lengths, bankings, surfaces, and yes, configuration varies
from track to track.  Each track requires different strategies in fuel and tire
management and in some cases brake management.  The frantic frammin' and bammin'
of Martinsvlle is quite different from the strategic restrictor-plate racing of
Talladega or Daytona. My understanding of these factors makes watching the races
every week far from a bit of the same.

Every track (or corner) in F1 looks different to you because you're thoroughly
familiar with all of the courses.  To people who are unfamiliar with Grand Prix,
or are just casual watchers, TI Aida looks like Interlagos which looks like
Barcelona which looks like Hungaroring, etc.

NASCAR certainly has its share of unseemly nudging, but they're nowhere near as
bad as British and Australian touring car racers.  At times these races make a
NASCAR race look like a funeral procession.  Seems to me even F1 drivers are
guilty of this.  (Schumacher, Hill and Senna have all put somebody off in the
quest for the championship, and there are many many others in F1 history.)

I certainly respect your opinion.  But what I don't understand is why you feel
the need, no matter how subtlely you do it, to scoff at oval track racing.
Comparing NASCAR to F1 is like comparing American football to European Soccer.
It makes no sense.  They are completely different sports, requiring different
skills, equipment, and venues.  That it all looks the same to you is due to your
unfamiliarity with the sport.

In my younger days, I used to feel the same way.  I looked down my nose at the
roundy-track racers with their hulking beasts and huge V8s and necks of color. I
thought only Formula One and International sports car racing was worth watching
and all else was merely amateur city.   But as I became older and more familiar
with motor racing, however, I grew to enjoy all forms of racing.  Once I
understood the particular sport, whether it was sprint car racing, World Rally,
Trials, motocross, or drag racing, I could appreciate the skill and appeal of
each type of motorsport much more.  I have my favorites, of course, but I gave
up pooh-poohing others' sports a long time ago.  Not only does it smack of
elitest snobbery, but it's ignorant as well.

I can't stand American Basketball.  I just can't see how hard it is for a
seven-foot guy to put a ball into a basket that's only ten feet off the ground.
My opinion is based on total ignorance.  My opinion does not make the sport
inferior to any other except in my own ill-informed mind.  I think that if you
took the time to understand NASCAR Racing, although you may still not like it,
you wouldn't pass it off as casually as you do now.

--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy
skin"

Matt Smit

Oval racing, my point

by Matt Smit » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Isn`t everyone rather jumping on this guy a bit. All he wanted to know was
what people saw in Oval racing. He didn`t say it was rubbish. He just wanted
to know what everyone else thught.
I find nascar extremely dull to watch on TV but often enjoy the oval cart
races. The passing always appears ( Please not I say APPEARS :-) ) to be too
easy and doesn`t add to the race. I realise that it's all about tactics and
that the drivers aren`t completely useless but I often feel that it's more
about drivers enjoying themselves than giving a good show.

Of course I've never seen a live race so it could actually be much more
exciting in the flesh ( I live in the UK so chances of me seeing one are
fairly slim) but to a UK tv viewer like me it seems dull as hell.

Matt

David L. Coo

Oval racing, my point

by David L. Coo » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

It's like this - If you don't like it, don't watch (or play)!  Those who do,
see the differences in each track and enjoy the door-to-door action.
Sometimes there are as many as 20 lead changes in a race.  Last weekend
during the race at Rockingham (I think it was around lap 220) there were
four cars fighting for the lead running side by side three wide sometimes.

If you're not into it, then this won't get you e***d.  If you are - you
will be on the edge of your seat!  I myselft enjoy many forms of racing.  I
watch Nascar, F1, GP500, and Rally.  Every form of racing has it's good and
bad points.  I am content to take the good with the bad.  Of course that
doesn't mean each of these forms of racing should not strive for
improvement.  I think sometimes it is like having to take one step back
before realizing th benifites of changes that eventually take things two
steps forward.

--David Cook


GTX_SlotCa

Oval racing, my point

by GTX_SlotCa » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Very well put, Marc. On-line racing action is a big part of the enjoyment we
get out of these games.  This is exactly why I race Monster Truck Madness 2
online. Monster trucks are very 'out of character' for me. But the online
racing action is very good. Plus my kids love Monster Trucks and every time
I win a race or Team GTX wins a tourney, I'm a hero with the wee ones. Of
course, it helps that the game has an excellent mult-player interface. N3
has it's own set of challenges. When I have more time to spend with it, I
hope to learn better setups and figure out how to use the draft to shoot by
Dale the way he goes by me.

Slot


> There is no question that NASCAR oval racing is not at the same level of
> skill or sophistication as CART of F1, but every oval IS different and
they
> each require different driving skills and techniques to master.

> I enjoy WATCHING CART first, then F1 then NASCAR.  I enjoy sim racing
NASCAR
> equally to the others because, due to the lower skill level involved, I
> actually have a chance to be involved in a real race for the whole length
of
> the race (sweaty palms, etc.).  Performing an awesome GPL flying lap where
> every turn and braking point is well executed is far more satisfying than
> cutting a bit off my best time of an oval lap in N3, but the racing is
much
> more accessible.

> I was, like you, not interested in watching NASCAR races on TV until AFTER
I
> got N2...then I realised that there was a lot more skill involved than it
> looked like in TV.  It still isn't CART or F1, but it makes for great sim
> racing.  Go buy N3 or NL and find out for yourself!!

> Marc.



> > First of all thank you for your input and congratulations on resisting
the
> > temptation to call me names.

> > The point is FOR ME that every oval track looks VERY much like another
and
> > if I remember well you have about 20 races per year in NASACR and about
10
> > of them on ovals, so the thing is :

> > Isn't it a bit the same to watch a nascar race on an oval track
somewhere
> > and the next oval race 15 days later somewhere else.

> > Please don't tell me too much about "each oval is different because the
> > banking is different or because the tarmac doesn't have the same
texture"

> > On TV it all looks very much the same for me when I get the possibility
to
> > look at it, in F1 or any other circuit race every corner is different,
> VERY
> > different and therefore it requires (I think) more skill from the
driver,
> > and more strengh (in terms of physical condition).

> > Also one bad thing about nascar (I think) is that sometimes the "bad
guy"
> > wins by pushing the "good guy" out, since I work in motorsports myself,
> > doing some truck racing (real trucks in Europe, not pickups like the
> nascar
> > trucks) I get this problem all the time when you are working HARD to get
a
> > good setup, the driver is doing his best to go fast and stay on the
track
> > and some *** kicks you out in the last lap.

> > By "bad guy" on NASCAR I refer to a certain Dale with a number 3 on his
> > black car...

> > I understand that for the "show" it is fun to see somebody push somebody
> > else but this is CAR RACING not boxing or demolition derby...

> > Once again thank you for your answers, even if we don't agree we can
> respect
> > each other's positions here and this is not always the case on the net.

James Wohleve

Oval racing, my point

by James Wohleve » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

On the following date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:55:25 GMT, said person(s)

But it is. Take Darlington for example. There is no way you can race
Darlington like Dega.
Nor could you race bristol like Darlington.
Each track has it's own personality and each takes its own way of
handling.
Sometimes each tracks turns have to be handled differently. At
Michigan turns 1 and 2 can be taken about 10 to 20 mph faster than
turns 3 and 4.

You could say that. But then were getting down to the nitty gritty.
How many turns does it take for a track to be considered harder?
6, 8, 20?
I think once you learn a track the amount of turns doesn't mean that
much. At Laguna Seca in SCGT I have that track memorized.. I can fly
through it. But a Hockiem (sp?) it has far less turns but yet I have
more trouble with it because Idon;t know it well.

Now what a sec. The first of this statement leads us to believe that
NASCAR has badguys that push goodguys into the wall.
yet you just said you get this problem all the time in Europe. So it's
not a NASCAR thing.

Yep, that's why he is called "The Intimidator"
He got that name because he did that. If what he did was common
practice he would not have gotten that nick. So that makes the above
statement false. Just because one or two drivers are more aggressive
doesn't spoil the whole sport. It adds personality.
We give pet names to the drivers here.
Rusty "Whining" Wallace because he always whines after losing.
Swerving' Ernie Irvan (Retired) because he would crash a lot.
Jeff "Pooh Boy" Gordon because he crys and sniffles if he wrecks
someone
and etc...

It's not that common.
If your in first and you see that number 3 take the inside lane, you
had better be able to go faster or he is going to let you personally
meet the wall.
Besides, old Dale as calmed down in later years. Been awhile since he
broke in a hotshot rookie.
A few bangs into the walls are good for them. Toughens them up.

NASCAR, Whimps not welcome.

- James "Gunslinger" Wohlever

Techware Computer Services
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

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Mike Laske

Oval racing, my point

by Mike Laske » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00


I'll take a bike racer over a car racer any day too.

Well, there are about 3 very different types of oval: superspeedways,
speedways... and Bristol, but I would have to agree that within these
categories there really isn't much of a significant difference between the
tracks.  As to whether it is a spectacle of racing, I guess that's one's own
opinion.  My racing experience is limited to go-karts, but I know that the
challenge of an oval is very much different to that of a road circuit... and
for proof of one's ability to race, you really have to say the successful
road course driver is likely to be the most capable driver.

Mike.

Chris Mille

Oval racing, my point

by Chris Mille » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00



I always chuckled at the comments before, but you seem to give
credibility to the posts that compare NASCAR with WWF "wrestling."

BTW, shouldn't the acronym be NACAR these days?

I realize that ovals are different, and that racing in packs that are
so close is quite difficult, but it then seems more like watching
formation aerobatics as they fly around and around.  NASCAR needs more
road courses, IMHO.

If these cars are supposed to resemble street cars (which they in no
way do), why not race on courses that somewhat resemble what people
drive on ('cept the tourists that get stuck on the roundabouts)?

There's a difference between fighting for position and defending your
racing line, and simply punting someone who can't do a thing from
behind.  What can a driver to do to prevent being smacked/spun out of
the race when leading?  Slam on the brakes and hope the annoying one
rearends you?

I watched the Sear's Point race on TV last year, and though it was
interesting (though the cars look ungainly, wallowing around as they
do), but can't watch an oval for more than a few minutes...

James Wohleve

Oval racing, my point

by James Wohleve » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

On the following date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:43:18 +1100, said person(s)

BINGO, hit the nail on the head.
For TV, yes NASCAR for the average Joe sucks.
But, if your into NASCAR and ever been to a race or race NASCAR 3 then
you watch it on TV you get a whole different perspective.
You get to see the strategy in pitting, in waiting until lap so and so
for car 4 to overtake car 6.
Its not all about putting the pedal to the floor and turning left.
Its bout approaching turn 3. You got a car on your right door, you got
a car on your left quarter panel... your approaching that turn.. what
you gonna do.. slow down and let both cars overtake you?
Drop down and try to keep the guy on the left behind you hoping you
down hit him on the process? Stay the line and hope the guy above you
backs off?
And each driver is facing that same type of problems for each turn.
Then, you come out of turn 4 into the straightaway.. you got 15 laps
of gas left.. Do you pit now and hope a yellow comes out soon.. if so
you won;t have to pit and can take the lead.. but will you be able to
stay on the track until the finish?
Will an accident happen so you can jump into the pits with 5 laps
left?
Your coming down the back straight... your spotter suddenly calls out
wreck on the back straight.. you see a cloud of smoke.. and that's all
you see..
Do you go high hoping whoever wreck spun low.. or do you go low
thinking the guy smacked the upper wall.. You get to the smoke cloud
pretty fast as your doing 190+
You cant see squat.. you here a car screaming out of control.. then
right in front of you.. a car is going sideways.. you hit the breaks..
fighting the wheel.. you hold the line down low and come out the
smoke... you look in your rear view mirror to see that the #5 car that
has been hounding you for the last 20 laps wasn't so lucky.. there he
sits up against the wall after loosing a tire from hitting the car you
just missed.

2 laps left.. you and the 1st place are neck and neck.. through turns
1 and 2 you stay neck and neck.. every time you get into a passing
situation he gets a little more ump.
Last lap, the white flag is flying..  your hands are sweating like
crazy.. you come out of turn 2 with a good line. you dive down to the
apex.. oooh boy he slightly over corrected.. you get beside his door..
you look over.. he is fighting for everything he has got.. but you
have the inside line...   turns 3 and 4 he stays right along side
you.. as you come out of turn 4 into that last straight to the finish
you ride up high.. 2 inches apart.. hoping to make him back off..
slowly, so very slowly your inching ahead.. checkered flag...
its gonna be close...
did I?
did he?

All of a sudden you hear your spotter screaming for joy.. you crossed
the finished about 6 inches in front of him!!!
Your throw you hand out the window and wave to the fans as you do your
victory lap....

Now come on, that doesn't sound like fun?

- James "Gunslinger" Wohlever

Techware Computer Services
http://techware.gtinsider.com

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Race15

Oval racing, my point

by Race15 » Thu, 02 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Just my opinion.
I love all types of racing with few exceptions .  Each style of racing is a
separate entity that needs a different and unique style.  I must say though,
that by your reasoning, drag racing must make Nascar look like the most
exciting sport in the world, and yet millions turn out to watch them run a
quarter mile in a straight line.
One more thing.  If road courses are the most demanding and need the most
talent, why then do Nascar guys always win the IROC championship?  They must
know something that the sporty car guys don't.
And that is - how to race on an oval.  
Mike

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