You said something to the effect that not racing back to the line doesn't
reduce the extra incidents, and the RASCAR races show that every week. Since
we've only recently TRIED that, it's not your proof. The last race or two HAS
had fewer incidents coming to the yellow flag, so I'd say that actually works
BETTER
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPLRank:+8.03
N2002 Rank:+20.124
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
>"Hypocrisy"....has a few definitions....the most common is something like
>this (according to my dictionary): "When actions are in conflict with
>principles or words."
>This is not a cuss word (at least not that I know of.....not in this country
>at least). Its not particularly negative even....except that one would have
>a difficult time accomplishing much in life if their actions were always in
>conflict with their words. I've used the word properly to describe what I
>perceive as a conflict between what seems to be your (collective) goals for
>RASCAR races, and the special rules you've implemented to conduct the races.
>Did I say, "Your mother's ugly and your sister's a hooker." Or something
>similar? Sorry, I didn't mean to! ....lol....
>"I disagree with your opinion. Hell, if we ran with no damage, I'd probably
>finish a LOT higher. I wouldn't be as worried about damaging my car, or
>taking someone else out of the race by forcing a pass. I could bounce off
>the walls(or other cars) without any concerns."
><Pabst> Okay...now here we have a basic and fundamental difference of
>opinion about the "spirit" of competition and racing. Do you think a
>Winston Cup driver pulls out onto the race track every Sunday and says,
>"Okay, today I don't want to die or wreck my car....so, because that's
>possible, I'm not going to make any mistakes or do anything stupid. I
>certainly am not going to try to win, or to pass anyone, either!" So
>Eldred....since you know wrecks happen in real racing, mistakes made by
>veteran drivers......and they can die and their wrecks cost real
>money...........but even with all that, there's no real deterrent to making
>racing mistakes - Are you trying to tell me that having "damage turned on"
>in a racing sim is more of a deterrent to "dumbness" than dying in a real
>race car is?
> Of course you are not!
>"Honestly, I don't know what the hell else to DO! What would you suggest?"
><Pabst> I have been making those "suggestions" in the form of constructive
>criticism for several weeks, maybe a couple months now. What's your point?
>"We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race."
><Pabst> When did I suggest that "forcing" people to practice was essential
>to having a successful RASCAR series of races? I've only mentioned the
>topic when others, including yourself, have questioned how much practice is
>necessary to properly prepare for a serious sim race......how much do
>"veteran sim drivers" practice for their league races. What "signal" are
>you trying to send to the newbies? That they don't have to practice at all?
>Certainly, you can't be saying that. Are you saying you can invent
>"training wheel rules" that will replace experience, practice and
>preparation? I hope not.
>1. You can help to reduce incidents during RASCAR races due to newbies'
>mistakes.......by encourage them to practice and prepare for the races.
>But, that's all you can do....is "encourage" because as long as you allow
>anyone to enter the RASCAR races, with no "culpability" as to their
>background or online racing experience........you will always have wrecks
>and yellows due to rookie mistakes. You can not legislate them away with
>special rules!
>2. You can "minimize the effect" on the other drivers.....from these
>mistakes/wrecks, etc., but you can't eliminate the mistakes/wrecks
>themselves. If you can't eliminate them (or even significantly reduce
>them), then why isn't minimizing their effect.....the next best step to
>take?
>Eldred....I want to close this post by telling you what I think about what
>you are trying to do with this RASCAR series on Saturday:
>1. I think its fantastic. I've been coming to r.a.s. for about 5 years or
>more....and no one, except you has tried to do this. I have "thanked you"
>many times for doing it....I'm thanking you again, right now.
>2. I do think you are not having fun doing this. Why? Well, maybe because
>you are trying to take on the whole "responsibility" yourself of seeing that
>the RASCAR races are successful and accomplish the goals you and others have
>suggested for them. I also think you should get some assistance in running
>the "servers" you have so graciously provided, so that burden is not on your
>shoulders every weekend. If you can't do that, perhaps cutting the RASCAR
>races to every other weekend or something, could reduce this burden on you?
>3. Ultimately, if you are not personally having fun doing this.....it won't
>continue. So, I ask you to tell us....everyone who has run in a RASCAR
>race, everyone who may run in one in the future.....what it is that we
>(collectively) can do.....to make this more fun for you. I want you to
>continue.......I'm pretty sure that is not an isolated desire....lol....
>So.....what is it we can do to make this more fun for you?
The things that decrease my 'fun factor' are twofold. 1)I don't seem to have a
snowball's chance of even getting a top-5 finish, let alone winning. I'm
usually last on the grid, and last in the race, only beating those who disco or
crash out. I've had people ask me why I even BOTHER if it isn't fun.
Obviously I'm going to have to take a long hard look at my future
participation.
2) Every race brings a torrent of arguments, finger-pointing, and hard
feelings. That's a hassle to wade through all the
...
read more »
-Larry
> > >>What happened at the start of the race? Were we infiltrated by a
wrecker?
> > >>Wished I'd saved the replay so I could see what that mess was all
about.
> > >Y'know, I *forgot* about that. I'll check the replay...
> > I haven't looked at the server replay yet, but on my local replay it
looks like
> > a massive warp. All I can see is Lee and Ed pacing the field, even
though they
> > were on row 3. Then DGF and JLe warp in and out a couple of times as
the flag
> > falls. Fredrickson and PKroberts don't pop back in until the melee had
already
> > started... Whew!
> > BTW, the results and replay are in the normal place:
> > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/rascar.html
> > Eldred
> --
> =========================================================
> Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
> http://www.paddedwall.org/john
> DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
> http://www.paddedwall.org/demons
> DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development)
> http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2
> RASCAR Roster
> http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar
> Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting)
> http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast
> If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
> above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
> =========================================================
That THAT, my friends, is one serious race driver :)
-Larry
> >I saw someone say that their foot slipped off the gas pedal. How that
> >equates to getting sideways on the front straight, well, I just don't
> >know... :)
> Oh, ok - that might have been one of the cars on the front row. As I
said, I
> don't see the front row in my replay until the accident is already under
way.
> But, yeah, I don't understand that excuse, either. :-)
> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> GPLRank:+8.03
> N2002 Rank:+20.124
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Right ?
-Larry
> > >On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:28:01 GMT, "David G Fisher"
> > >>I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and
qualifying.
> Got
> > >>disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decided
to
> > >>stick it out and got 3 back.
> > >I feel your pain. Had it happen to me twice, in addition to a bogus
> > >BF for trying to miss the lap 1 mahem. I was coming close to getting
> > >back on the lead lap when it happend the second time. Between black
> > >flags and the disconnects I have spent the last two weeks just trying
> > >to get back on the lead lap.
> > Must have been heavy weather(internet) yesterday. In the morning, I cot
> > disco'd from a league race at Texas. I couldn't get back in after I got
> > dropped to the sierra.com screen. I had to totally quit the program,
> start it
> > again, then log back into sierra.com and the race. It probably cost me
> about
> > 10 laps - not that it would have mattered anyway...
> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank:+8.03
> > N2002 Rank:+20.124
> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
-Larry
> >On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:28:01 GMT, "David G Fisher"
> >>I thought I was going to have a good lap after practice and qualifying.
Got
> >>disco'd though while running in 4th and returned 5 laps down. Decided to
> >>stick it out and got 3 back.
> >I feel your pain. Had it happen to me twice, in addition to a bogus
> >BF for trying to miss the lap 1 mahem. I was coming close to getting
> >back on the lead lap when it happend the second time. Between black
> >flags and the disconnects I have spent the last two weeks just trying
> >to get back on the lead lap.
> Must have been heavy weather(internet) yesterday. In the morning, I cot
> disco'd from a league race at Texas. I couldn't get back in after I got
> dropped to the sierra.com screen. I had to totally quit the program,
start it
> again, then log back into sierra.com and the race. It probably cost me
about
> 10 laps - not that it would have mattered anyway...
> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> GPLRank:+8.03
> N2002 Rank:+20.124
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
I see it precisely as you have described, and it serves this purpose
PERFECTLY.
I, for one, appreciate the fact that you set this up.
-Larry
On the other hand, it does even the field out, and I think makes driver
skill and adaptability a primary consideration.
It works for me because, frankly, as a crew chief I suck :)
-Larry
What I was talkin about is HUGE spikes in latency in races on papy open
servers. Bout 3 or 4 times this past week latency meter went all the way up,
and every car on the track would be gone. I know it wasn't just my
connection because of other people chatting about it.
--
ed_
> Tom,
> Sorry - but I just got to ask:
> How the hell do you get anything done??? You just keep on talking and
> talking and talking and talking!!??!!! Is there anything out there you
> dont have to write a 20 page essay to answer/comment a question or topic?
> Really makes one wonder how long it would take you to order a meal in a good
> restaurant!
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
TP
> --
> ed_
> > Eldred.....
> > "Here we go again"..... [zzzzzzzzz part SNIPPED!]
> I write fast.....
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
John
> I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of today's
> current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that sim
racing
> is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almost four years
> now). I think there's a future in this activity as an "e-sport"....and
that
> means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race. Some
> people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care, I
believe
> it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was an idiot.....50
> years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself to Bill
> France....just stating the comparison of the situations.]
> So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same
> way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of
> that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks like something else
> that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is normally what
> "putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am very serious** about
> sim racing.
> I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a valid part of
the
> racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably still very much
in
> the minority....even amongst sim racers.
> Regards,
> Tom
> "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> news:un5skm3alcbgb2@corp.supernews.com...
> > Ah.........ok, whatever :) Boy, I think you've missed your calling;
> you
> > should be a politician, as good as you can put a spin on things.
> > John
> > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02...
> > > John...
> > > Fair questions. Here's my answers:
> > > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must
> > > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points
> championship,
> > > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate
> > interest
> > > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the
> RASCAR
> > > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn't
> mean
> > I
> > > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor
> does
> > > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it
> > > represents.
> > > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but
just
> > for
> > > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that league
> was
> > > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider
> > > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our
> league
> > > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't
think
> > "my
> > > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I
haven't
> > > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise.
> > > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whether
> you
> > > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going to
> > look
> > > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to
> > (initially
> > > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has
> been
> > > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are
incorrect,
> or
> > > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You can
> ask
> > > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long
> > > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years!
I
> > care
> > > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers.
Sim
> > > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: The
> new
> > > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent
the
> > > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some of
> you
> > > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough,
to
> > one
> > > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And,
> > that
> > > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first
come
> > > into the public sim racing community.
> > > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do
> > > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then
your
> > > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I
> urge
> > > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have
reason
> to
> > > do so.
> > > Regards,
> > > Tom
> > > "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> > > news:un56drrn5oa88e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that
> you
> > > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not
comment
> > on
> > > > other "leagues" too ?
> > > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who
> didn't
> > > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what
would
> > you
> > > > think ? Rude as hell imo.
> > > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I
> don't
> > > > comment on them.
> > > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ?
> > > > John
> > > > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03...
> > > > > John....
> > > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about
> > "why
> > > > I'm
> > > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races?
> > > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are
not
> > > > obvious
> > > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every
> > RASCAR
> > > > race
> > > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you?
> > > > > TP
> > > > > "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:un4qkb3fbo1o2a@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every
> > week,
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it,
show
> > up
> > > at
> > > > > > some more races :)
> > > > > > John
> > > > > > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit
> of
> > > > > > "hypocrisy
> > > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events
on
> > > > > Saturdays.
> > > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for
racing
> > > > > > experience
> > > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points
> are
> > > > > > > collected.
> > > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the
> > RASCAR
> > > > > > races -
> > > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but
reduce
> > the
> > > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally.
> > While,
> > > > > they
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie
drivers
> > > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > yellow" as an example).
> > > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why
do
> > you
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the
first
> > > lap -
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I
don't
> > even
> > > > > know
> > > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in
a
> > > race
> > > > > > that's
> > > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that
result
> > in
> > > > wall
> > > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have
> > > enough
> > > > of
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper
> > > > "deterrent"
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you
> > don't
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other
> > > drivers,
> > > > > too!
> > > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced
> or
> > > > stupid
> > > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the
> > field
> > > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running
for
> > > "fun
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the
race?
> > > > That's
> > > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion.
> > > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are
a
> > > mixed
> > > > > > group
> > > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who
> run
> > > > with
> > > > > us
> > > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races,
> > even
> > > > > though
> > > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run
> > with
> > > > > > damage,
> > > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the
> first
> > > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the
> > first
> > > > few
> > > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking
> out
> > > > half
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for
> the
> > > > > > remaining
> > > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked
out.
> > > > That's
> > > > > > why
> > > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no
> one
> > > > > > complains
> > > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to
read more »
Don Burnette
> I see it precisely as you have described, and it serves this purpose
> PERFECTLY.
> I, for one, appreciate the fact that you set this up.
> -Larry
> > It was started as a way to get off the Sierra open servers. It's also a
> way
> > for people who don't have the time or inclination to run in a league to
> > compete. In other words, it was an alternative for people who didn't
want
> to
> > run in leagues or open races.
> > Eldred
