Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
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N2002 Rank:+20.124
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Incorrect - the 'no racing back' rule wasn't implemented until the most recent
race(2 races?).
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:+8.03
N2002 Rank:+20.124
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In the "group" I was referring to, there's many new guy's that don't know
everyone. This is always the case as we add new drivers to the group from
time to time. But, our "rule" we've decided about re-starts......isn't
required to be "interpreted" by anyone. Our rule is: If a yellow comes out
on lap #1.....the race is re-started.....no discussion...its automatic.
Everyone has agreed to this prior to racing (or doesn't race with us if they
can't live with this rule). The only time we don't do this is when we've
decided to run with no damage (that depends on the track we are running and
the particular makeup of the drivers for that race - experience wise). I'm
sorry for mis-interpreting what you were saying about the nature of our
groups.
TP
> > > The rules regarding damage, racing back to the yellow and no restarts
are
> > > because it is still a fairly open group.
> > <Pabst> Toney, if by an "open group" you mean a mixture of experienced
> > drivers and rookies, then that is exactly the reason that no special
> > "training wheel" rules should be employed. Especially, for a race
that's
> > supposed to be for "fun and experience." Just a difference of
philosophy
> > between us I guess?
> I mean that it is not a group of drivers that know each other necessarily.
I
> have raced with other leagues where we have known each other to a level
where if
> certain people agreed we should restart then we would. My assumption was
your
> group was at this level.
> > > Restarts with a known group are possible, but where you have new
members
> > it
> > > needs to be made clear that daft moves at the start won't simply mean
you
> > start
> > > again, hence the experience gained.
> > <Pabst> I disagree with your assessment of "damage on" being a
deterrent
> > to stupid, "daft" driving. It never has been in all the years I've
raced
> > online....don't know what's special about RASCAR that makes it so. The
only
> > thing it does is end the "experience and fun" for those caught up in
someone
> > elses "daftness."
> Again I have raced in leagues where those causing incidents have been
mortified
> that they ruined the racing for others. This had a greater effect on their
> approach next time than damaging themselves. However, it takes time and
may be
> questionable in an open league where new members can drop in at any time.
> > > Similarly racing back to the yellow seemed to be a prime cause of
> > incidents and
> > > extended caution periods. From the experience gained this has been
added.
> > It may
> > > not be realistic but with the mix of driving ability and the danger of
> > cars
> > > racing whilst others are recovering from accidents makes it arguably
too
> > risky.
> > <Pabst> These "problems" are caused by inexperienced drivers not
knowing
> > what "racing back tot he line" means...or what the correct conduct is on
the
> > track when a yellow comes out. How do they learn? Certainly not be
> > removing that "experience" from the race. Wouldn't you have to agree?
> Yeh, I am not really sure on this one. I think it was chosen due to too
many
> incidents and was considered a prudent move. Maybe sim & reality just
can't
> coincide here as mixing accidents and racing seems pretty difficult
conveyed via
> the limited view of the computer screen. I think this could be debated for
ages!
> > > Again damage is there so either inexperienced drivers or over
ambitious
> > ones
> > > gain the experience to improve their driving or approach. For most
this
> > does not
> > > just mean gaining experience from not damaging your own car, but that
your
> > move
> > > costs others races as well. The deterrent shouldn't just be some lost
time
> > which
> > > doesn't hurt so much when a yellow ensues compared to say GPL.
> > <Pabst> Again, your assessment that "damage on" is a deterrent to
stupid
> > racing....is just not valid.
> I would say it was a definite deterrent to not tangling with the AI in
single
> player, so cannot see why it would not apply to online.
> > > As you describe it I would say both groups have got it about right for
the
> > > mix of drivers.
> > <Pabst> My "group" is the same mix as RASCAR. I don't understand your
> > point.
> My assumption is your group is a known group who race together on a
regular
> basis, whereas Rascar is not. That is my point.
> Cheers
> Tony
I've heard something along the lines of: "These RASCAR races are partly for
the benefit of the inexperienced sim racers to gain some experience racing
with the more experienced sim racers".....or something along those lines, in
response many times to my request for a "veterans only" additional RASCAR
race on Saturday. If you did not participate in that general "theme" of
response......I can't validate that or not without going back through
hundreds of posts, which I'm not going to do (at least not just to make a
point). Are you now saying that this "general theme" is not the case?
TP
Fair questions. Here's my answers:
1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must
"join" and commit to running every week. There's no points championship,
and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate interest
in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the RASCAR
races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn't mean I
don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor does
that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it
represents.
2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but just for
arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that league was
making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider
him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our league
was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't think "my
remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I haven't
heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise.
3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whether you
like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going to look
upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to (initially
at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has been
sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are incorrect, or
send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You can ask
Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long
time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years! I care
more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. Sim
racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: The new
drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent the
current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some of you
take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough, to one
day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And, that
is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first come
into the public sim racing community.
John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do
participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then your
comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I urge
you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have reason to
do so.
Regards,
Tom
> For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who didn't
> participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what would you
> think ? Rude as hell imo.
> And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I don't
> comment on them.
> Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ?
> John
> "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03...
> > John....
> > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about "why
> I'm
> > concerned" about the RASCAR races?
> > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are not
> obvious
> > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every RASCAR
> race
> > to have an opinion about them. Do you?
> > TP
> > "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> > news:un4qkb3fbo1o2a@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every week,
> > it's
> > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show up
at
> > > some more races :)
> > > John
> > > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02...
> > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of
> > > "hypocrisy
> > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on
> > Saturdays.
> > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing
> > > experience
> > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are
> > > > collected.
> > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR
> > > races -
> > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the
> > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While,
> > they
> > > do
> > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers
> > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to
the
> > > > yellow" as an example).
> > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you
> > have
> > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first
lap -
> > no
> > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even
> > know
> > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a
race
> > > that's
> > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in
> wall
> > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have
enough
> of
> > a
> > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper
> "deterrent"
> > to
> > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't
> > have
> > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other
drivers,
> > too!
> > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or
> stupid
> > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field
> > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for
"fun
> > and
> > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race?
> That's
> > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion.
> > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a
mixed
> > > group
> > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run
> with
> > us
> > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even
> > though
> > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with
> > > damage,
> > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first
> > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first
> few
> > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out
> half
> > > the
> > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the
> > > remaining
> > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out.
> That's
> > > why
> > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one
> > > complains
> > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the
temporary
> > > loss
> > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And,
we
> > > don't
> > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant
> > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race
> > > rules....and
> > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of
> the
> > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that
> > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any
questions
> > they
> > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any
more
> > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing?
Not
> > > > really.
> > > > This is just my two cents.
> > > > Tom
> > > > "EldredP" <eldr...@aol.comSPAM-OFF> wrote in message
> > > > news:20020901090454.02941.00000178@mb-dh.aol.com...
> > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst"
> > > > <tmpa...@attbi.com>
> > > > > writes:
> > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at
the
> > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race?
> > > > > No, it's not a silly question.
> > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the
> > > replay.
> > > > I
> > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it.
> > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to
provide
> > an
> > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a
> > second
> > > > chance.
> > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it
> > ANYWAY...
> > > > > Eldred
> > > > > --
> > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > > > > GPLRank:+8.03
> > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124
> > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
TP
> You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing
experience
> for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are
> collected.
> Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR
races -
> "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the
> "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, they
do
> nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers
> (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the
> yellow" as an example).
> If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have
> such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no
> matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know
> why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race
that's
> for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall
> contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of a
> "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent" to
> doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have
> that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other drivers, too!
> Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or stupid
> induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the field
> (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for "fun and
> experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race? That's
> pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion.
> I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a mixed
group
> of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run with us
> are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races, even though
> they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run with
damage,
> and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first
> lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the first few
> laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out half
the
> field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the
remaining
> drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out. That's
why
> we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one
complains
> about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the temporary
loss
> of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway). And, we
don't
> make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant
> (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race
rules....and
> follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes of the
> "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for that
> particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any questions they
> have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any more
> "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing? Not
> really.
> This is just my two cents.
> Tom
> > writes:
> > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at the
> > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race?
> > No, it's not a silly question.
> > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at the
replay.
> I
> > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it.
> > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to provide an
> > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a second
> chance.
> > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it ANYWAY...
> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank:+8.03
> > N2002 Rank:+20.124
> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
John
> Fair questions. Here's my answers:
> 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must
> "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points championship,
> and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate
interest
> in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the RASCAR
> races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn't mean
I
> don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor does
> that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it
> represents.
> 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but just
for
> arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that league was
> making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider
> him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our league
> was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't think
"my
> remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I haven't
> heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise.
> 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whether you
> like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going to
look
> upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to
(initially
> at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has been
> sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are incorrect, or
> send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You can ask
> Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long
> time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years! I
care
> more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. Sim
> racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: The new
> drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent the
> current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some of you
> take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough, to
one
> day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And,
that
> is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first come
> into the public sim racing community.
> John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do
> participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then your
> comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I urge
> you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have reason to
> do so.
> Regards,
> Tom
> "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> news:un56drrn5oa88e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that you
> > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not comment
on
> > other "leagues" too ?
> > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who didn't
> > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what would
you
> > think ? Rude as hell imo.
> > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I don't
> > comment on them.
> > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ?
> > John
> > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03...
> > > John....
> > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about
"why
> > I'm
> > > concerned" about the RASCAR races?
> > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are not
> > obvious
> > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every
RASCAR
> > race
> > > to have an opinion about them. Do you?
> > > TP
> > > "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> > > news:un4qkb3fbo1o2a@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every
week,
> > > it's
> > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show
up
> at
> > > > some more races :)
> > > > John
> > > > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of
> > > > "hypocrisy
> > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on
> > > Saturdays.
> > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing
> > > > experience
> > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are
> > > > > collected.
> > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the
RASCAR
> > > > races -
> > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce
the
> > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally.
While,
> > > they
> > > > do
> > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers
> > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to
> the
> > > > > yellow" as an example).
> > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do
you
> > > have
> > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first
> lap -
> > > no
> > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't
even
> > > know
> > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a
> race
> > > > that's
> > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result
in
> > wall
> > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have
> enough
> > of
> > > a
> > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper
> > "deterrent"
> > > to
> > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you
don't
> > > have
> > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other
> drivers,
> > > too!
> > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced or
> > stupid
> > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the
field
> > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for
> "fun
> > > and
> > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race?
> > That's
> > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion.
> > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a
> mixed
> > > > group
> > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who run
> > with
> > > us
> > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races,
even
> > > though
> > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run
with
> > > > damage,
> > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the first
> > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the
first
> > few
> > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking out
> > half
> > > > the
> > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for the
> > > > remaining
> > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out.
> > That's
> > > > why
> > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no one
> > > > complains
> > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the
> temporary
> > > > loss
> > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway).
And,
> we
> > > > don't
> > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant
> > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race
> > > > rules....and
> > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10 minutes
of
> > the
> > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for
that
> > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any
> questions
> > > they
> > > > > have prior to the start. In general, these races don't have any
> more
> > > > > "cautions" than the real WC races run on those tracks. Amazing?
> Not
> > > > > really.
> > > > > This is just my two cents.
> > > > > Tom
> > > > > "EldredP" <eldr...@aol.comSPAM-OFF> wrote in message
> > > > > news:20020901090454.02941.00000178@mb-dh.aol.com...
> > > > > > In article <Ozhc9.313672$UU1.55058@sccrnsc03>, "Tom Pabst"
> > > > > <tmpa...@attbi.com>
> > > > > > writes:
> > > > > > >Silly question probably.....but if you guys had a big "warp" at
> the
> > > > > > >start....why didn't you just "restart" the race?
> > > > > > No, it's not a silly question.
> > > > > > 1 - I didn't even KNOW it was caused by warp until I looked at
the
> > > > replay.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > was too busy languishing in last place, so I couldn't see it.
> > > > > > 2 - We've never restarted a race before. That's supposed to
> provide
> > > an
> > > > > > incentive to be smart at the start, knowing that you won't get a
> > > second
> > > > > chance.
> > > > > > 3 - I wasn't logged in as the server boss, so I couldn't do it
> > > ANYWAY...
> > > > > > Eldred
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > > > > > GPLRank:+8.03
> > > > > > N2002 Rank:+20.124
> > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"Here we go again".....is directed right back at you! Why do you seem so
"thin skinned" about this RASCAR stuff? I wonder?
"Hypocrisy"....has a few definitions....the most common is something like
this (according to my dictionary): "When actions are in conflict with
principles or words."
This is not a cuss word (at least not that I know of.....not in this country
at least). Its not particularly negative even....except that one would have
a difficult time accomplishing much in life if their actions were always in
conflict with their words. I've used the word properly to describe what I
perceive as a conflict between what seems to be your (collective) goals for
RASCAR races, and the special rules you've implemented to conduct the races.
Did I say, "Your mother's ugly and your sister's a hooker." Or something
similar? Sorry, I didn't mean to! ....lol....
Whether you want to win isn't even questioned. The fact that RASCAR doesn't
collect season points means the outcome of the races are for fun....and the
personal fulfillment of the participants....what ever their personal goals
with sim racing may be (which could be to win, to gain experience, get a
top-10 finish...or a dozen others). I sim race because I like racing. I
win less than 5% of the time, does this mean I don't have fun for 95% of the
rest of the races? I don't really even understand the point you are trying
to make about that......it totally escapes me.
"I also know of *points* leagues that have a 'no racing back to yellow'
rule (also in an attempt to avoid more incidents). Would you call
them hypocritical as well?"
<Pabst> Yes. If the league's charter was to provide a realistic racing
environment for newbies. And, they held "mixed races" with experienced
drivers and newbies running together. And, were attempting to reduce
"incidents during cautions"......that would be in conflict with the "no
racing back" rule implementation - in my experience and opinion. Whether
they collect points or not....doesn't even matter to the point.
"I disagree with your opinion. Hell, if we ran with no damage, I'd probably
finish a LOT higher. I wouldn't be as worried about damaging my car, or
taking someone else out of the race by forcing a pass. I could bounce off
the walls(or other cars) without any concerns."
<Pabst> Okay...now here we have a basic and fundamental difference of
opinion about the "spirit" of competition and racing. Do you think a
Winston Cup driver pulls out onto the race track every Sunday and says,
"Okay, today I don't want to die or wreck my car....so, because that's
possible, I'm not going to make any mistakes or do anything stupid. I
certainly am not going to try to win, or to pass anyone, either!" So
Eldred....since you know wrecks happen in real racing, mistakes made by
veteran drivers......and they can die and their wrecks cost real
money...........but even with all that, there's no real deterrent to making
racing mistakes - Are you trying to tell me that having "damage turned on"
in a racing sim is more of a deterrent to "dumbness" than dying in a real
race car is? Of course you are not! The point is.....whether damage is
turned on or off......will not effect the number of accidents made by
mistakes or dumb moves, by the rookies. If you have a driver who is using
the "no damage" to push his/her way around everyone....then that person is
not a serious sim driver and shouldn't be in the RASCAR races in the first
place! Or, maybe you think they should? In which case, I have no idea what
you are doing the RASCAR races for.
"Again, I object to you're calling our attempts at better racing "bicycle
training wheel" rules.
<Pabst> Eldred.....When I see a duck. I call it a "duck." Whether you
like the term I use or not, I'm being honest and calling it as I see it.
Any rule you introduce outside of the normal NASCAR racing rules.....that
you think will reduce mistakes made by rookies......just won't. These are
"training wheel" rules and they don't work. So, have a fit if you want
to.....but I think you are not addressing the topic when you take it
personal like this.
"Honestly, I don't know what the hell else to DO! What would you suggest?"
<Pabst> I have been making those "suggestions" in the form of constructive
criticism for several weeks, maybe a couple months now. What's your point?
"We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race."
<Pabst> When did I suggest that "forcing" people to practice was essential
to having a successful RASCAR series of races? I've only mentioned the
topic when others, including yourself, have questioned how much practice is
necessary to properly prepare for a serious sim race......how much do
"veteran sim drivers" practice for their league races. What "signal" are
you trying to send to the newbies? That they don't have to practice at all?
Certainly, you can't be saying that. Are you saying you can invent
"training wheel rules" that will replace experience, practice and
preparation? I hope not.
"We don't kick people out just because they may not have perfect car
control."
<Pabst> When did I suggest that, too? What I asked about was the
possibility of having a second, "veterans only" RASCAR race on Saturday.
Why is that interpreted by you as "kicking people out" of the open RASCAR
race?
"Faced with those two very important facts, I really don't see how to
eliminate yellow flags."
<Pabst> Now you got it! You can't "eliminate" yellow flags or accidents,
or whatever......made as the result of rookie mistakes. You also can't even
reduce them. Not with special rules or race procedures. You CAN do two
things:
1. You can help to reduce incidents during RASCAR races due to newbies'
mistakes.......by encourage them to practice and prepare for the races.
But, that's all you can do....is "encourage" because as long as you allow
anyone to enter the RASCAR races, with no "culpability" as to their
background or online racing experience........you will always have wrecks
and yellows due to rookie mistakes. You can not legislate them away with
special rules!
2. You can "minimize the effect" on the other drivers.....from these
mistakes/wrecks, etc., but you can't eliminate the mistakes/wrecks
themselves. If you can't eliminate them (or even significantly reduce
them), then why isn't minimizing their effect.....the next best step to
take?
Eldred....I want to close this post by telling you what I think about what
you are trying to do with this RASCAR series on Saturday:
1. I think its fantastic. I've been coming to r.a.s. for about 5 years or
more....and no one, except you has tried to do this. I have "thanked you"
many times for doing it....I'm thanking you again, right now.
2. I do think you are not having fun doing this. Why? Well, maybe because
you are trying to take on the whole "responsibility" yourself of seeing that
the RASCAR races are successful and accomplish the goals you and others have
suggested for them. I also think you should get some assistance in running
the "servers" you have so graciously provided, so that burden is not on your
shoulders every weekend. If you can't do that, perhaps cutting the RASCAR
races to every other weekend or something, could reduce this burden on you?
3. Ultimately, if you are not personally having fun doing this.....it won't
continue. So, I ask you to tell us....everyone who has run in a RASCAR
race, everyone who may run in one in the future.....what it is that we
(collectively) can do.....to make this more fun for you. I want you to
continue.......I'm pretty sure that is not an isolated desire....lol....
So.....what is it we can do to make this more fun for you?
Regards,
Tom
> >This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit of
"hypocrisy
> >in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on
Saturdays.
> Good grief - here we go again... :-(
> I take offense at you calling it hypocrisy, Tom.
> >You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing
experience
> >for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points are
> >collected.
> No, we don't collect points, but I'm QUITE sure it matters who wins. I
know
> *I* would be happy if I won. If you don't want to win, why would you even
> BOTHER?
> >Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the RASCAR
races -
> >"in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce the
> >"realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally. While, they
do
> >nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers
> >(everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back to the
> >yellow" as an example).
> We started out running *exactly* like the WC drivers do(yellows, race to
the
> line, double-file restarts). I even had forced cockpit view and forced
smoke
> set on the server. The changes in the rules were an attempt to decrease
the
> number of yellows. I also know of *points* leagues that have a 'no racing
back
> to yellow' rule(also in an attempt to avoid more incidents). Would you
call
> them hypocritical as well?
> >If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do you have
> >such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first lap - no
> >matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't even know
> >why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a race
that's
> >for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result in wall
> >contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have enough of
a
> >"penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper "deterrent"
to
> >doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you don't have
> >that
read more »
I'm not trying to "put a spin" on anything. I think that many of today's
current sim racers....and visitors to r.a.s, don't remember that sim racing
is my full-time job (has been for the last three years...almost four years
now). I think there's a future in this activity as an "e-sport"....and that
means I can make a living doing what I love to do......sim race. Some
people try to put me down for thinking that. I don't really care, I believe
it will happen. Lots of people thought Bill France was an idiot.....50
years ago! That didn't stop him. [I'm not comparing myself to Bill
France....just stating the comparison of the situations.]
So.....I don't think about all this sim racing stuff in the same
way......probably "most" of the other r.a.s. guys do. Because of
that.....perhaps "my spin" as you call it......looks like something else
that it is not. That is, I'm not being "insincere" which is normally what
"putting a spin" on something usually means. I **am very serious** about
sim racing.
I love racing. I love sim racing because I consider it a valid part of the
racing world. I do realize that this believe is probably still very much in
the minority....even amongst sim racers.
Regards,
Tom
> John
> "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:6EBc9.165292$aA.33622@sccrnsc02...
> > John...
> > Fair questions. Here's my answers:
> > 1. The RASCAR races are not a "league." Not in the sense that I must
> > "join" and commit to running every week. There's no points
championship,
> > and other than "bragging rights for a day or two" there's no innate
> interest
> > in who wins each week. My schedule doesn't allow me to run in the
RASCAR
> > races regularly, without dramatically altering it. But, that doesn't
mean
> I
> > don't want to.....or that I won't be able to from time to time. Nor
does
> > that mean I'm not interested in RASCAR, or what's doing or what it
> > represents.
> > 2. If I was running a league (which I am not at the moment....but just
> for
> > arguments sake), and someone who did not currently race in that league
was
> > making constructive criticism remarks or comments, I wouldn't consider
> > him/her rude. I would thank him/her for their interest in what our
league
> > was doing. Perhaps, he/she would race with us some day? I don't think
> "my
> > remarks" are anything beyond "constructive criticism".....and I haven't
> > heard from John Simmons or Eldred otherwise.
> > 3. Whether all of you running in RASCAR realize it or not, or whether
you
> > like it or not........newbies who make their way to r.a.s are going to
> look
> > upon you guys as "veteran sim racers." They are **not** going to
> (initially
> > at least) know who has been sim racing for a few months...or who has
been
> > sim racing for years. When any of you make remarks that are incorrect,
or
> > send the wrong message to newbies.....I will always speak up. You can
ask
> > Scott Husted or any of the other "vets" who have known me for a long
> > time.....I have been consistent about this for more than five years! I
> care
> > more about the newbies than I do the existing veteran sim drivers. Sim
> > racing is no different than real-world racing in this one aspect: The
new
> > drivers represent the future of the sport.....the veterans represent the
> > current and past! Some of you think sim racing is a "game." Some of
you
> > take it as a serious "hobby." Some of you think its serious enough, to
> one
> > day become an "e-sport" of sorts. I am part of that last group. And,
> that
> > is why I care about what the newbies are exposed to when they first come
> > into the public sim racing community.
> > John, if you don't participate in all of the RASCAR races, but you do
> > participate (or have the option to do so) in some of them.....then your
> > comments and constructive criticism should be as welcome as mine. I
urge
> > you to participate when you can.....and to comment when you have reason
to
> > do so.
> > Regards,
> > Tom
> > "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> > news:un56drrn5oa88e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Because, I find it interesting, your commenting on a "league" that
you
> > > don't participate in. If you're trying to be helpful, why not comment
> on
> > > other "leagues" too ?
> > > For that matter, if you were running a league, and someone who
didn't
> > > participate in it kept commenting on how it should be run, what would
> you
> > > think ? Rude as hell imo.
> > > And no, I don't participate in every RASCAR race. That's why I
don't
> > > comment on them.
> > > Now, I've answered your question, how about you doing the same ?
> > > John
> > > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:puwc9.323884$UU1.55973@sccrnsc03...
> > > > John....
> > > > Not trying to be rude to you. But, why are you so concerned about
> "why
> > > I'm
> > > > concerned" about the RASCAR races?
> > > > If my reasons for contributing to the general discussion.....are not
> > > obvious
> > > > to you, I can't help that. I don't need to participate in every
> RASCAR
> > > race
> > > > to have an opinion about them. Do you?
> > > > TP
> > > > "John Pancoast" <jpanco...@tetontel.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:un4qkb3fbo1o2a@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Tom, why are you so concerned about how RASCAR is run ? Every
> week,
> > > > it's
> > > > > comments, mostly negative. If you're that interested in it, show
> up
> > at
> > > > > some more races :)
> > > > > John
> > > > > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:kDrc9.158250$aA.32333@sccrnsc02...
> > > > > > This is just my two cents.....but it seems to me there's a bit
of
> > > > > "hypocrisy
> > > > > > in thought" about how you guys are running the RASCAR events on
> > > > Saturdays.
> > > > > > You claim, on one hand....these races are for fun AND for racing
> > > > > experience
> > > > > > for the newbies, that it doesn't matter who wins and no points
are
> > > > > > collected.
> > > > > > Then, you make "special rules" that reduce the realism of the
> RASCAR
> > > > > races -
> > > > > > "in order to help the rookies" - but they do nothing but reduce
> the
> > > > > > "realistic experience" factor for the newbies incrementally.
> While,
> > > > they
> > > > > do
> > > > > > nothing to reduce the "problems" associated with rookie drivers
> > > > > > (everywhere)....they just introduce new ones ("not racing back
to
> > the
> > > > > > yellow" as an example).
> > > > > > If the RASCAR are races are for "fun and experience" then why do
> you
> > > > have
> > > > > > such an aversion to restarting when there's a crash on the first
> > lap -
> > > > no
> > > > > > matter what the reason is? I just don't get it. Hell, I don't
> even
> > > > know
> > > > > > why you guys run with damage turned on.....that's pointless in a
> > race
> > > > > that's
> > > > > > for fun and experience. Mistakes made during a race that result
> in
> > > wall
> > > > > > contact, spins, wrecks, blown tires, etc. - in themselves have
> > enough
> > > of
> > > > a
> > > > > > "penalty" to the initiating driver......to work as a proper
> > > "deterrent"
> > > > to
> > > > > > doing stupid things. At least, with damage turned off.....you
> don't
> > > > have
> > > > > > that "stupid mistake" ruin the race for one or several other
> > drivers,
> > > > too!
> > > > > > Race starts that are marred by accidents, whether warp induced
or
> > > stupid
> > > > > > induced.....ruin the race instantly for a large portion of the
> field
> > > > > > (especially with full damage turned on). If you are running for
> > "fun
> > > > and
> > > > > > experience" then what is the purpose of not restarting the race?
> > > That's
> > > > > > pure hypocritical in my book......but that's just my opinion.
> > > > > > I run with a group of guys "for fun" every few weeks. We are a
> > mixed
> > > > > group
> > > > > > of experienced sim drivers (some of the real-world drivers who
run
> > > with
> > > > us
> > > > > > are new to sim racing....thus "rookies" in these online races,
> even
> > > > though
> > > > > > they have lots of real-world racing experience). We don't run
> with
> > > > > damage,
> > > > > > and we automatically restart when there's a "yellow" on the
first
> > > > > > lap...heck, sometimes we restart if there's a big wreck in the
> first
> > > few
> > > > > > laps. We are racing for fun.....and for experience. Knocking
out
> > > half
> > > > > the
> > > > > > field on the start erases the fun of the rest of the race, for
the
> > > > > remaining
> > > > > > drivers.....and removes the "experience" for those knocked out.
> > > That's
> > > > > why
> > > > > > we don't run with damage and we restart automatically (and no
one
> > > > > complains
> > > > > > about it......the "benefits" to the whole group outweigh the
> > temporary
> > > > > loss
> > > > > > of position to a few...and that evens out over time, anyway).
> And,
> > we
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > make any other "bicycle training wheel" rules. As a participant
> > > > > > (experienced or not), you are expected to know the NASCAR race
> > > > > rules....and
> > > > > > follow them. We hold a "drivers meeting" for the last 10
minutes
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > "practice session"....to go over any special rules in place for
> that
> > > > > > particular track....and for some of the new guys to ask any
> > questions
> > > > they
> > > > > > have prior to the start.
read more »
I need to get *at least* a solid half hour in and watch the DW lesson
*before* the half hour RASCAR practise. Depends on the track.
Probably had an hour and a half of Calif. before the event and *still*
backed into the wall on my own on lap 60.
No, definately takes me time to get used to how a car handles at a
track and prepare for how it reacts in traffic and when I'm forced off
my preferred line, etc.
You're a natural, and I'm jealous...
Mark
Reading, UK
>This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. I spend
>half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one or two
>pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPLRank:+8.03
N2002 Rank:+20.124
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
> >> We can't FORCE everyone to practice 30-60 hours for each race. We
don't
> >kick
> >> people out just because they may not have perfect car control. Faced
with
> >> those two very important facts, I really don't see how to eliminate
yellow
> >> flags.
> >This notion that you need so many hours of practice is ridiculous. I
spend
> >half an hour in practice driving california, and ive done maybe one or
two
> >pick up races there months and months ago, and i got the friggen pole.
> Well, it's been suggested by some that are much faster than us, so... I
know
> I've been shortchanging myself by not practicing, and it probably shows in
my
> results. I'd normally run whatever laps I had time for on the race
server,
> then my 1-2 qual laps. So most races I probably ran about 10-15 laps.
> As far as practice for this race - I practiced for about an hour doing
solo
> laps. I also ran a couple of races against the AI(maybe 30-35 laps each).
You
> know where I qualified? Last by almost .5 seconds. Even though I ran
about 10
> times the amount I normally do, it didn't do a ***ing bit of good. I
guess it
> would TAKE me 30 hours of practice to have a decent race... :-(
> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> GPLRank:+8.03
> N2002 Rank:+20.124
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
It was started as a way to get off the Sierra open servers. It's also a way
for people who don't have the time or inclination to run in a league to
compete. In other words, it was an alternative for people who didn't want to
run in leagues or open races.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:+8.03
N2002 Rank:+20.124
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
