rec.autos.simulators

We all know that physics and track-environment wise, GPL is -the- benchmark
product.  It's just not set up as a game, which has harmed sales no end.

Nothing on the horizon looks close to being as involving, not even from Papy
themselves.  Could they do an id and sell/lease out their engine? Other
companies would have a fantastic starting point with which to produce some
magnificent titles that could cross over to the mainstream and introduce more
people to the pleasures of full on simming without the massive learning
curve.  Career modes, junior formulae to complete before graduating to upper
echelons, training modes, lessons, maybe multiplayer catchup (ugh!) and ghost
modes.  Game elements such as locking tracks out are totally against my way
of thinking, but if they inspire -gamers- to continue, it could be the
necessary bait to get them hooked on our beloved genre. Not having to worry
so much about having to develop a physics/driving/track construction model
from the ground up would allow developers to concentrate on these crossover
friendly features. Image GT with GPL physics, proper AI with larger fields,
real tracks, damage modelling, and in lovely clear high res.  Now -that-
would be something to behold...

What about it?  Feasible?

Mark
Reading, UK

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I apologize for the length of this, but I think there are a lot of
issues revolving around this question.

I think the issue may be if there are companies out there who WANT to
make a realistic racing sim, but don't have the ability to produce
such an advanced engine...
Their are 10 less than realistic driving games released for every true
sim, and usually the true one is from Papyrus anyway. =8^/
It's early and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but I can only think of
three exceptions to this right now, GP2, F1rs/MGPR2, and Viper Racing.

I think the arcade racers sell better, so a true sim needs to be a
labor of love. I think the biggest trend in the next couple of years
is going to be relaxed sims with realistic elements.
NFS: High Stakes, TOCA2 and SCGT (which I love!) fit this description.
They try to capture the thrill of *racing*, not absolute physics
perfection.

SODA, Viper Racing, and GPL have the 3 best physics models, in my
opinion (SODA was *way* ahead of it's time). Were any of these
successes? Viper was marketed from the start as a low-price title, and
you can get it for 14 bucks now. SODA has be 14 bucks for over a year.
Sierra knee-capped SODA by not having Software Allies complete the
3Dfx patch, but that is another 500 line message issue. :-)

Viper is an engine I'd love to see in another racing sim. Not only
because it's realistic, but because it'll do 50fps with details pegged
at 800x600 on a mid-line box like the K6/2 300 (maybe Papyrus can
license THAT engine for N3! <bg> ).
The only thing with Viper seems to be the number of cars you can run.
Their are hacks to use more than the default 8, but I think it freaks
out if you use more than 16. Don't know if that could be worked around
without killing frame rate or not.

Sorry to ramble, but there are a LOT of issues revolving around your
seemingly simple question! :-)

Tim

Well apart from the fact in the 18-24 months lead time to create a game the
engine will be old hat, no reason at all. Obviously if Papyrus are
improving the engine then code builds could be shipped but look at
Daikatana, a Q2 engine move cost them best part of a year. The reason FPS
companies can do this is that they make their engines to be extensible,
Papyrus probably don't.

In any case, emailing them direct would be likely to uncover more
information on this subject. I suspect that any details of if and how
they'd license are confidential unless you're an interested party taking
part in a meaningful discussion.

The real problem with licensing is support but I'll have to find an
alt.support.people.who.suck NG to vent about that ;)

Errr? I don't actually recall any other sims being released. OF1R is
supposed to be a sim but anything based on Power F1 but the jury is still
out on it so we'll skip for now. Papyrus have released more sims than
anyone else but GPL was their first in almost 2 years since NASCAR 2 (N99
isn't a new title IMO) and we had F1RS in that gap.

Anyway, I digress, the number of released sims is minimal because the
appeal is marginal compared to that of arcade racers.

There are engines that may work well for other games but the problem is
arcade racers far outsell sim racers and no company will put money into the
latter if they're not going to shift units.

M

    When I first heard of SCGT, I thought that I would put GPL and NASCAR2 on the
self and let them collect dust.  This is because I love the slower cars such as
the 4 cylinder sedans.  In GPL, I race the F3 cars because of this.  I just can't
get into racing an over powered car where I'm busy shifting, braking,
accelerating, and turning all within just a few seconds and not being able to
enjoy the race/drive.  Since SCGT is too arcadish for me, I placed the SCGT CD on
the shelf and let that collect dust.  I do have a couple games on CD's that
aren't on the shelf.  In fact, they are sitting right here next to me.  They make
very good coasters (set my coffee cup on them so I don't mark up the desk ;-)

    If Papy ever produced a Sim with the 4 cylinder cars and the physics of GPL,
I'd jump on it in a hart beet.  Unfortunately, It would probably sell even worse
then GPL just because it didn't have "NASCAR" anywhere on the box :-(

--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
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Member of R.O.R. 1999
http://www.pivot.net/~marknjess/ror.html
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Racing online with the help of......

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(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

I agree that no 'tasty' licence harms the appeal, but personally, I -never-
go into a shop and buy a game on the merit of it's box art.  I think that in
not allowing races with lower formulae and not having artificial 'lifespan
extending' features (locked tracks, secret cars or modes) reduces the scores
the games mags give, and pretty much every review of gpl I read warned off
newbies.  That affects sales.

This is what I love.  I spend more hours than is probably considered safe
(when my sodding back isn't playing up, that is!) in front of GPL.  Imagine
using this physics model to race MX5s (Mazda Miattas outside UK?), before
graduating to Elises, then maybe on to Cobras... Sane cars to start off with,
that might have ABS or whatever.  Get players into it gradually. I'm
basically being selfish.  I want more people to appreciate the beauty that is
a well produced and polished sim.  More people get into it, more are
produced.  I like arcade racers, too - but I have a PSX for that.

Get some nifty manufacturer licences (that's if Sony hasn't locked them all
out with GT2) and that would make up for not having the backing of a race
series.  People dove on GT because it included real cars that looked pretty
much spot on and they were told that it was as realistic as realistic could
be.

Cheers
Mark
Reading, UK

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don't tell me that wouldn't sell. The best way to make profits on a game is
snazzy box art and a good low price.. And I hope Sierra\papy is listening.

     I read your post with a great deal of interest,as I've run a few of
your F3 races on VROC,however,I do prefer to run F1.  But I do have to take
exception to some of your statements.

    SCGT with the patch is a pretty neat little sim,without it,yes it it
arcadish,but that's the way it was intended to be. So that the casual racer
could enjoy it without having a learning curve like in gpl. I do find that
upgrading through earning money and buying parts is rather silly.

     Like it or not,Nascar is the hottest racing series in the the United
States.  It offers fans what they want,great close racing,and drivers that
go out of there way to meet and greet them.  Just look at their commercials
on tv.

      As you pointed out GPL represents an era more than 30 years ago.
True,there would be less interest in it than a more current era,but from a
business point of view,just how many more current F1 sims do we need?
Perhaps Papyrus would have been better off doing a Cart sim. From what I've
read,GPL hasn't sold well,at least not up to Sierras projections.

Joel Willstein

A lot of the learning curve in GPL is the cars themselves, not necessarily
the engine.

Sure, it offers NASCAR fans what they want.  Doesn't offer anything
non-NASCAR fans want though.  What commercials?  I've seen/heard more CART
commercials than NASCAR ones at least in Chicagoland.

There isn't ANY current F1 SIMS...there are a bunch of half-hearted
attempts, lots of arcade racers.  And no, GPL hasn't sold well but I think
that Michael was right along with many others, it WAS because its about 1967
cars (and somewhat because they are openwheelers...though I don't put as
much stock in that as others do) and the general game buying public is just
not fimiliar with those cars.  Put CART, F1, NASCAR (especially in the
states unfortunately), WSC, Sportscars, Road Cars, Muscle Cars, Touring
cars, etc of modern era on the cover and in the game and it would have sold
a hell of a lot better not to mention being a bit easier because the cars
aren't as hard to master.

It offers fans what they want,great close racing,and drivers that
go out of there way to meet and greet them.  Just look at their commercials
on tv.<<

?!

Um, Joel, TV delivers an audience to a product.  And so, the drivers on TV
commercials are selling a product, but they're a product too.  Surely this
bit of sentimental "hey, this driver's jes'plain folks, jes like me!"
marketing, while genius, is rather a diff. thing from having "drivers that
go out of there way to meet and greet."  I'm not saying the NASCAR drivers
aren't more accessible, but the example from TV is a bit, well, odd.

When you're playing GPL, are you racing or driving to church?

Jens

On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:21:40 -0500, "Herman Munster"

HAHA! I thought you guy said driving A church.