rec.autos.simulators

Physics

Doug Millike

Physics

by Doug Millike » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Grant --

Don't you have free public libraries?  Around here, if I ask the
local library for a book they go out and buy it (then I can take
it out for 3 weeks at a time).  Ah, well, anything for a sale...

Also, I've seen our book advertized at VERY high prices in various
magazines from Europe.  It's often cheaper to order direct from the SAE.
If you prepay with a credit card then they only add on USD 10.00 for
international airmail -- which is a bargain, since the book weighs ~5 lbs
(mass ~2.3 kilos).

-- Doug



> > There is a summary of the basics in our book, "Race Car Vehicle
> > Dynamics", available through the online bookstore at www.sae.org
> ah, now there's a book i would die to get my hands on :) i'm kinda
> into the physics of race cars myself and it had been recommended
> to me by certain leading sim developers, but i had gone and forgotten

Doug Millike

Physics

by Doug Millike » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> Incidentally......just out of curiosity, is your organisation free of
> buffalos or do you provide buffalos with net access at no cost?

> Just curious.

Curiously enough, no one can seem to find any record of buffalos
(bison) in this area -- the Western end of New York State.

We do our best to buffalo the rest of the world to make up for it.

----------
The Buffalo Freenet is just that - free net access (text only), sponsored
by the local university, the local library system, grants of old equipment
(and etc) from a few companies, and user donations (yes, I do chip in).
From what I hear, I get better service (uptime) and "help" than many
friends that use commercial services.

Bruce Kennewel

Physics

by Bruce Kennewel » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Aha!!  Clarification and the puzzle is solved!
Good on you people for your efforts in providing a low-cost/free net
access facility.  An excellent idea!


> Curiously enough, no one can seem to find any record of buffalos
> (bison) in this area -- the Western end of New York State.

> We do our best to buffalo the rest of the world to make up for it.

> ----------
> The Buffalo Freenet is just that - free net access (text only), sponsored
> by the local university, the local library system, grants of old equipment
> (and etc) from a few companies, and user donations (yes, I do chip in).
> From what I hear, I get better service (uptime) and "help" than many
> friends that use commercial services.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/
Todd Hecke

Physics

by Todd Hecke » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Okay, when I said "let's talk about aerodynamics..." it was a JOKE!
Ha ha, it is to laugh!  Enough already!  Mercy!  Look, I'm the poor
programmer who gets to implement all this stuff.  My head hurts! ;<)

Todd



>> Oh no, formulas, please no formulas :o). Lets wait with the

formulas until we have to
this phenomena, okay :o)?
the car where the air is,
will need some force :o). I
(a flat front) or push it
understand why pushing the
we push the air aside;
of the car (take a picture
the car is the front area)
being moved is of course moved
greater force needed to do so,
could be tricky, because
compression increases with speed.

- Show quoted text -

Christer Andersso

Physics

by Christer Andersso » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00

If you stick your head out the window when doing 200 kph, you'll feel the drag
:o).

/Christer, this is no time for common sense


> Okay, when I said "let's talk about aerodynamics..." it was a JOKE!
> Ha ha, it is to laugh!  Enough already!  Mercy!  Look, I'm the poor
> programmer who gets to implement all this stuff.  My head hurts! ;<)

> Todd




> >> Oh no, formulas, please no formulas :o). Lets wait with the
> formulas until we have to
> >> calculate something and instead concentrate on how to understand
> this phenomena, okay :o)?

> >I'd advise starting with basic formulas, actually.
> >You can do an awful lot of vehicle dynamics/performance
> >analysis with them. (This is only as deep as I go working
> >in dynamics and performance, and I have a MS in aerodynamics.
> >In order to go deeper, one hires a specialist in the field ;)

> >Really "knowing why" some shape drags or lifts
> >is complicated because you have to deal with the
> >"boundary layer" between the car surface and the
> >pretty-much-smoothly-flowing air. If you don't
> >include these complicated effects (or cheat by throwing
> >in a few experimental observations) you can't even
> >do a theory that predicts lift or drag. ("Inviscid Flow")

> >The air splits and flows around the vehicle. At the car
> >surface, the velocity of the air is equal to the velocity
> >of the surface - it's drug along with the vehicle. Even more
> >air is drug along not-quite-so near the surface to some extent,
> >just not fast enough to be as fast as the vehicle.
> >Speeding up all this air decelerates the car somewhat
> >(Newton's equal and opposite reactions, and all) - call
> >it friction drag.

> >The "static pressure" of the airflow
> >(what would be measured by a pressure port at the surface
> >and what creates the force that presses onto the surface)
> >drops as the air molecules flow faster. They have to
> >flow faster or slower to make changes in direction.
> >Going up the windshield the molecules slow and the
> >static pressure is higher. Going down the back of the car
> >they speed up and the pressure drops. When it drops
> >far enough, the air very near the surface actually is
> >forced back forward by the static pressure gradient
> >(rate of change). The boundary layer "Separates" and you
> >get a lot of air roiling around behind the car.
> >The pressure here is relatively low. So we have
> >high pressures near the front of the car, and lower pressures
> >at the back. Pressure times area is force,
> >so the summary is we have a net force aft. Call
> >it "Pressure Drag" or "Form Drag".

> >When you use Lift to get more downforce
> >what you are doing is forcing a lot of air upwards
> >to get that downforce. The average force to
> >change the direction of all that air slightly
> >upwards has a component aft as well - call it
> >"Induced Drag", for drag induced by lifting.

> >Finally, if you get near supersonic speeds,
> >you will add an important drag effect from shockwaves.
> >"Wave Drag".

> >> At the front of a moving car there is something trying to push the
> car backwards - air
> >> resistance. In front of the car there is of course air and to place
> the car where the air is,
> >> we have to move the air, and as we all know air has mass, so this
> will need some force :o). I
> >> guess we can do this in two way, either push the air in front of us
> (a flat front) or push it
> >> aside (a front formed as some kind of projectile). I wont try to
> understand why pushing the
> >> air is a bad idea, but we dont want a parachute effect, I guess. So
> we push the air aside;
> >> over, under and to the sides of the car.

> >Actually, if you don't include the effect of the complicated friction
> >forces you are doing "Inviscid Flow" above and your theory will
> >eventually
> >find the air will part around the vehicle, the pressure will be
> >different around different parts of the vehicle, but the overall net
> >effect of all those differing pressures is zero lift, and zero drag.

> >> The amount of air pushed aside must be approximately the front area
> of the car (take a picture
> >> of the car from the front, and any part of the picture covered by
> the car is the front area)
> >> mulitplied with the length we have travelled. This mass of air
> being moved is of course moved
> >> faster the faster we go. The faster we have to move the air the
> greater force needed to do so,
> >> hence this force increase with speed. To calculate the force needed
> could be tricky, because
> >> the air doesn't only get moved it also compresses and the
> compression increases with speed.

> >This is why I suggest starting with the basic equations useful for
> >vehicle dynamics. You have just made a justification for why
> >drag is commonly estimated as proportional to the area
> >and also proportional to the "dynamic pressure".
> >Density times velocity times velocity divided by 2 (just for fun.)
> >(Unless you get near sonic speeds, the air can be considered
> >"incompressible" (just like water) so the air really
> >doesn't compress noticibly.)

> >Hehe, I just glanced at "Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics,"
> >by Gillespie, S.A.E., Warrendale, PA, 1991, ISBN 1-56091-199-9
> >and find these are the FIRST and SECOND equations in 30 pages
> >on aerodynamics ;)

> >In practice, you use the equation:

> >   drag = drag_coefficient times area times dynamic_pressure

> >for everything, including understanding that if you make the
> >car twice as big, and go twice as fast then you will need
> >six*** times the engine power portion alloted to fighting drag.

> >If you want to know why the car gets less drag with the
> >new wing airfoil in place of the old one
> >("what is the drag_coefficient")
> >you ask your aerodynamicist ;)  (Or learn enough
> >aerodynamics to guess yourself)

> >> What's turbulence?

> >See Gilespie's aerodynamics chapter ;)

> >- Matt

Todd Hecke

Physics

by Todd Hecke » Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:00:00


the drag

200 kph... that's like 20 miles per hour, right?  Actually, I prefer
to stick my hand out the window and pretend that it's a wing, angling
it up and down and feeling the lift and downforce.  I only stick my
head out the window when I have my dog along for the ride.  He hates
it when I do that.

Todd

Grant Reev

Physics

by Grant Reev » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Hi Doug,


> Don't you have free public libraries?  Around here, if I ask the
> local library for a book they go out and buy it (then I can take
> it out for 3 weeks at a time).  Ah, well, anything for a sale...

Yep we do have them here, but they never quite have the exact
books I want to get out. It wouldn't feel right to me to go ask them
to buy a book that I know I'm the only person probably in the whole
area who is remotely interested in reading. It's a waste of their
money. And I keep forgetting to hand library books back so eventually
I could probably have bought the book from the fines.... :)

I am moving to the States in a month or three so I'll just
pick the book up from somewhere then. This is good for numerous
reasons: a) i'll have a job and can afford it (and the company
may even buy it for me) b) lower shipping costs and shipping time,
c) it will mean i take 2.3kg less luggage with me on the plane:)

On the other hand in our dangerous modern societies it would
probably be a good idea to have a book that big at hand to defend
myself against possible intruders and other nefarious individuals.
Although it's debatable as to which method would drive away an
attacker more promptly: swinging the book at him/her/it, or opening
up the book and starting to read out a section on tyre tread
deformation at high slip angle cornering....

Meanwhile i'll just stick to reading a couple of Carroll Smith's
books, that i finally found at our librarying when i discovered
all the larger size books were in a different section.

thanks!
Grant.

Bruce Kennewel

Physics

by Bruce Kennewel » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

You aren't serious, are you?


> 200 kph... that's like 20 miles per hour, right?

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/
Todd Hecke

Physics

by Todd Hecke » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

40? 60?  It's kind of like Canadian money, right?  (I can say that,
'cause my wife is Canadian, as are my kids.  Don't worry, I'll get
mine.)  Doesn't it fluctuate?  Or is it ever decreasing? 8>)


>You aren't serious, are you?


>> 200 kph... that's like 20 miles per hour, right?

>--
>Regards,
>Bruce.
>----------
>The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
>http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Micheal Smi

Physics

by Micheal Smi » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:55:54 -0600, "Todd Heckel"


>40? 60?  It's kind of like Canadian money, right?  (I can say that,
>'cause my wife is Canadian, as are my kids.  Don't worry, I'll get
>mine.)  Doesn't it fluctuate?  Or is it ever decreasing? 8>)

Ouch...this is good stuff.  Stop bashing my Loonie!!  :)

Mike

Micheal Smi

Physics

by Micheal Smi » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:48:09 -0600, "Todd Heckel"


>200 kph... that's like 20 miles per hour, right?

LOL!!

Yes, I like to play airplane too...and I'm forty don't you know?  :)

Mike

Christer Andersso

Physics

by Christer Andersso » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Sounds like a funny dog, what kind is it?

Admit going 200 sounds a lot more fun than going 20 :o).

/Christer, promotes the "Global online racing, with pings larger than 1000 ms
and collision detection"-proposal




> >If you stick your head out the window when doing 200 kph, you'll feel
> the drag

> 200 kph... that's like 20 miles per hour, right?  Actually, I prefer
> to stick my hand out the window and pretend that it's a wing, angling
> it up and down and feeling the lift and downforce.  I only stick my
> head out the window when I have my dog along for the ride.  He hates
> it when I do that.

> Todd

Todd Hecke

Physics

by Todd Hecke » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00


Oh no, she's not funny at all.  She's a Rottweiler.  And she likes the
window all to herself.

Well, yeah.  Kind of like how earning $100,000 Canadian sounds a lot
more fun that $30,000 U.S.  (Rim shot!)  Sorry, just couldn't resist.
Okay, I'll behave from now on.

Todd

Todd Hecke

Physics

by Todd Hecke » Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Actually, I like the Loonie.  I just can't stand the fact that more
good racecar drivers are coming out of Canada these days than just
about anywhere else.  So I have to retaliate somehow.  The only
alternative would be to start telling jokes about the Canadian
military.  Then there's all those Canadian actors...


>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:55:54 -0600, "Todd Heckel"

>>40? 60?  It's kind of like Canadian money, right?  (I can say that,
>>'cause my wife is Canadian, as are my kids.  Don't worry, I'll get
>>mine.)  Doesn't it fluctuate?  Or is it ever decreasing? 8>)
>Ouch...this is good stuff.  Stop bashing my Loonie!!  :)

>Mike

Bruce Kennewel

Physics

by Bruce Kennewel » Sat, 27 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Thank Heavens....a sense of humour! :o)
You had me a bit worried there for a sec!


> 40? 60?  It's kind of like Canadian money, right?  (I can say that,
> 'cause my wife is Canadian, as are my kids.  Don't worry, I'll get
> mine.)  Doesn't it fluctuate?  Or is it ever decreasing? 8>)



> >You aren't serious, are you?


> >> 200 kph... that's like 20 miles per hour, right?

> >--
> >Regards,
> >Bruce.
> >----------
> >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
> >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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