rec.autos.simulators

Grant Reeve.

Wow!!
So much for being modest.

Jerry will now bend over so that we can bask in the sunshine that blazes
from his fundamental orifice.

Incidentally, what exactly is a 'tribological lab'?  Is that a place
where tribes are examined and studied?

Oh...bummer, Grant!
I was expecting some earth-shattering pronouncement....along the lines
of Stephen Hawkings' theory, or, at the very least, Albert Einsteins'!!

We could call it the "Geez Effect", perhaps?!  :o)

Todd Heckel wrote

Hehe, no problem Todd.   You can check Mike Lescault's past posting on
DejaNews, he clearly mastered the art of USENET posting.  Just consider than
on a typical day on r.a.s., at least 20% of the posts are irrevelant.  But
it leaves 80% of good still.

You will never find a place or more scum and villany...

Choose the right people to reply to,  and choose your words.  We all get
caught in the bag. ;-)

<learn to use the Force, like a Jedi master>

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Tribology is the study of friction, lubrication, wear, contact of real
surfaces, surface failures ............. I know this because of my
engineering degree, but, unfortunately, I don't have sunshine that blazes
from my fundamental orifice! (ha ha!!, but that would be a neat trick,
wouldn't it?).

I had some long explanations typed out and then the power went out. Damn
Iowa weather. So here is the shorter, sweeter version.

I agree with 1. Number 2 is also correct most of the time. The exception
is when street tires are pushed to hard and they throw off large chunks of
tread instead of wearing normally. Number 4 is probably correct other than
the wording, but that is a nit picky point. (Pressure per square cm is
redundant) Number 3 is the one I disagree on. I would have to refresh my
memory on the exact answer to why the physics doesn't apply. I believe it
has to do with the chemical or molecular interactions which sum up to add
to the friction force. More surface area allows more bonds, which add to
the total traction. Sort of like a material has a certain tensile
strength, given in psi, but a larger piece of that material takes a larger
force to break it. Probably a bad example but I think it serves the
purpose. I'll do some researching tonight and see if I can find a
documented answer that makes sense.

Tread squirm is just what it sounds like. Tread blocks squirm around under
the load exerted on them by cornering, etc. The flexing of the ***
creates heat due to the internal friction, or whatever you want to call
it. Excessive heat kills the tires. Remember some heat is good. Very
important to remember when riding a motorcycle in freezing weather. Tires
don't stick well when cold.

brain too. > It's understanding that's important, not knowing, IMO. I
believe it's

You mean I could just write "The more pressure there is on the tyre surface, the
more the tyre wears"? How about my conclusion that becasue we have a smaller
pressure on a wider tyre, we can have a softer tyre? If so and if you're correct
about 3 then this would just add to my conclusion, right?

What you are saying is that traction increase if you make the same tyre a bit
wider. You also say that this has it's reason in chemical or molecular interaction.
This should mean that the surface can not be seperated in the middle, cause this
would ruin the effect, right? So if we just added two more rear wheels to a car we
wouldn't increase the total traction, cause there is no interaction between the
tyre surfaces. If we make a groove in the middle of the tyre, then this would also
ruin the effect, or have I misunderstood you?

If we study a small area of the surface on a tyre, the same area will get gripier
the wider the tyre is??? This totally blows me :o). I dont understand it. The width
of a tyre compared to the size of the molecules seems to different to affect each
other.

This I can understand, though :o).

I didn't understand the word "tread", I'm from Sweden, you know. I've looked it up
now and I see how a groove can increase the squirmishness, thus increasing the
heat. BTW, I dont think everybody who reads and posts to this NG comes from english
speaking countries. It seems as if some of you forget this from time to time.

As I understand it there has to be more bonds per area unit the wider the tyre is,
and this doesn't make sense to me.

Got it :o).

I guess you have to learn to live with this, even in books of facts there are
errors. I believe that everything you read or hear you should be a bit skeptical
to, especially if it doesn't make sense. Since it's written and said by humans it
will contain errors :o). I also believe one should have some skeptisism to ones own
knowledge. I guess this gets more and more apparent as you get closer to the limit
of human knowledge. The "experts" will always disagree.

It's also a very good way to improve your understanding of the subject, if your
pedagogic skills are any good, that is :o)./Christer, just love to use his human
right to guess :o)

"I dont trust air I cant see", Red October

What do you mean when you say more bonds add to the total traction?  I am a
little confused. (This sure is an interesting and enlightening topic though)

Here is something else to consider in the narrower v. wider
tire debate.  Wider tires don't merely increase the tire
contact patch, they also increase the track width of the
vehicle.  That is, the center-to-center distance between
tires on opposite sides of the car is greater, which will
tend to increase the mechanical grip produced (like that
TV car commercial where they say "wider is better").

Also, the coefficient of friction is not constant in this
real-world application, but I'm still trying to come up with
a coherent explanation for it :)

--
Pat Dotson
B.S. Mechanical Engineering - Purdue University
IMPACT Motorsports

All of this fascinating discussion raises an interesting point about
the issue of developer involvement in this newsgroup:  it's IN OUR OWN
BEST INTEREST.  We aren't the sole experts on the subject, we're just
like the average (I think) sim racer with a huge interest (perhaps
even a passion) in the subject and the great fortune to actually work
in a field so closely related to our non-work interests.  These
discussions are wonderful because they give us access to people more
knowledgeable than us in various fields - who are willing to share
their knowledge for a pittance!  Some (but not all) of this stuff can
be found in many textbooks, but it can be rather dry, and of course
the element of debate (and the ensuing enlightenment) is missing.  The
stuff about grip per unit area not being proportional to pressure was
great; now I have a more theoretical basis for computing friction
force based on the width of the tire.  Okay, so lets talk about
aerodynamic drag...o^)

Todd

Best,
Edwin Solheim
Check out The Paddock -  a legendary site...
for some cool Grand Prix Legends stuff and tips!
(http://www.racesimcentral.net/)