rec.autos.simulators

Physics

Christer Andersso

Physics

by Christer Andersso » Mon, 22 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> Okay, so lets talk about aerodynamic drag...o^)

I know, I know, I know, I mean have some guesses :o))). When a car moves it
leaves the air molecules that was behind it, so these molecules must be
replaced, because vacuum is not acceptable within our atmosphere :o). This start
of a vacuum behind the car will of course also pull on the car, thus drag. The
principle is the same as in your vacuum cleaner, Bruce, it's as we had someone
chasing us with a vacuum cleaner :o).

With a wing it gets more complicated. Because the wing has forced the air
upwards with speed it makes this air harder to suck in behind the car, hence the
vacuum gets a little larger with a wing, and even larger with more wing :o).

Now correct me :o).

/Christer

Doug Millike

Physics

by Doug Millike » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Hi All,

Understanding tires isn't easy.  There is a branch of engineering
that is called "tire mechanics" and I doubt that you will find
anyone that is seriously involved in the business saying that they
"know it all" <grin>.

As well as _this_ thread on what happens between "***" (actually a
complex brew of various polymers - long chain molecules, etc) and the road,
there is the whole business of the rest of the tire and how different
*** elements are loaded/stressed.  For example, at the start of the
footprint (of a rolling tire, not a sliding tire), the *** is just set
on the road with no force at all - then various sliding happens as that
"bit" of *** moves through the print.

There is a summary of the basics in our book, "Race Car Vehicle
Dynamics", available through the online bookstore at www.sae.org

Sincerely,

-- Doug

                Milliken Research Associates Inc.

mark jeangerar

Physics

by mark jeangerar » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Ha ha ha. Now you have me imagining what a tire 60 inches wide will do Christer.

--

mark
"A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track."

F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.


    :o))) Well, actually... no :o). Bare with me will you, please. If we have a tyre
    with a contact patch of one square cm and it has 100 bonds, then the pressure on one
    bond will be 1/100 of the pressure, right? If we increase the contact patch to ten
    square cm, it will have 1000 bonds. The pressure per bond will now only be 1/1000 of
    the pressure, or 1/10 of what it was on the smaller tyre, but you say the traction
    added from a bond will not have decreased with 1/10, but with less than 1/10, on the
    bigger tyre... Why? Not why you say it, but what causes it :o)?

Byron Forbe

Physics

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

   How's about acid rain???????????


> Of course, if it's raining, they cool off a lot quicker.



> > >> Since the tires are narrower, they'll also cool-off faster!!!

> > >Because??? The reason for me asking is that I dont understand why they
> > >should. The heat doesn't travel very well within ***, so I guess :o)
> > most
> > >of the heat probably stays close to the contact surface and is cooled down
> > by
> > >the air flow and pavement. As I said, I dont understand this yet :o).

> > You just answered that one yourself Christer..
> > Since theres less area or mass to cool-off, the process will go much faster.
> > Another issue is the fact that a norrower tire will "flow" way much better
> > thru the air, that a wide one - thus getting much more efficient cooling.

> > Best,
> > Edwin Solheim
> > Check out The Paddock -  a legendary site...
> > for some cool Grand Prix Legends stuff and tips!
> > (http://www.racesimcentral.net/)

> --
> Regards,
> Bruce.
> ----------
> The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

mark jeangerar

Physics

by mark jeangerar » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Now I am guessing. :-) Steel belts are pretty heavy and can cut a tire from the inside out. Under extreme heat, the steel separates from the *** fairly easily. Kevlar is a popular substitute and though not as strong, about 1/5 the weight of steel. Seeing that racing venues really dislike debris on the track, (especially small, hard to see, steel pokey things) and that racing tires frequently come apart, I would think Kevlar for tread and sidewall reinforcement along with other synthetics. The racetrack doesn't require the protection from puncture that would necessitate steel, and Kevlar will give stiffness where needed.

--

mark
"A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track."

F1RS - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~chaser/car/results.htm
Remove us here and there to mail me.

I think the main way heat is removed from the tire is thru contact with
the pavement. The air flow might play a role in open wheel cars, but even
then I believe the car designers try to direct the air flow over the
tires. The top of the tire is moving against the air flow and really
disrupts things.

A couple thoughts on heat traveling thru the ***. First, I think that
the whole tire should be pretty uniform in temperature because there is no
localized  heating. Second, do race tires use steel belts? My guess is
they don't but I'm not sure. But if they do, then the steel would conduct
the heat pretty well.

Jer

Byron Forbe

Physics

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

   Shit, I finally made it to the end! :)) So I now know what Tribology is and have a new
parameter to play with - chemical bonding.

   Now Jerry, let me throw a few educated ideas at you.

   1/ I say that these chemical bonds are probably negligible under just about all
circumstances compared to the friction effect.

    2/ I say that 1/ is even more so at higher speeds where winged cars add massively to
the downforce and consequently friction. Also, with or without wings, at high speeds this
chemical bonding has less time to take effect and becomes even more negligable ie less
time for chemical reaction to take effect.

    So, what does the one from the Tribology tribe say to this? And some accurate
percentages would be much appreciated if you could ie the percentage ratio of the friction
effect compared to this bonding stuff. (Come to think of it, how could one measure this?
Perhaps by testing tyres of the same compound but different widths at the same
speed/weight and calculating the difference in grip, etc, etc.....???????)

     I won't be surprised if you were nit picking in the first place and actually
decieving this NG a little yourself. The laws of physics are the laws of physics (ie
friction) and I doubt very much that a little extra chemical bonding will be a match for
the mighty parameter of friction in this example.


> You're right, the molecules don't know what's goin on more than a couple
> microns away. Let me try to explain. If one square cm has 100 bonds, then
> ten sq cm will have 1000 bonds. Each individual bond adds to traction and
> the number of bonds is dependent on the surface area of the contact patch.
> So bigger tires have more bonds and therefor more traction. Got it?

Byron Forbe

Physics

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

   ROTFL!!!!!!!!!


> Heavens!  Surely somebody with the overwhelming facilities of a
> tribology lab can keep the power on?!!  Rub a few sticks
> together....that produces friction, therefore heat.....doesn't it? :o)


> > I had some long explanations typed out and then the power went out. Damn
> > Iowa weather. So here is the shorter, sweeter version.

> Regards,
> Bruce.
> ----------
> The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
> http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Byron Forbe

Physics

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

   Bruce's wife - "Damn it Bruce, I told you to sweep and mop the lino, not vacumn it!"


> No, Christer.
> I drag my vaccuum around the house, cleaning behind the sofa like a good
> husband, and I have no friction problems at all....it glides along very
> smoothly.

> I'm starting to understand this stuff, I think :o)!!



> > > Okay, so lets talk about aerodynamic drag...o^)

> > I love your attitude, Todd :o), and I'm looking forward to this discussion :o).
> > I'm having problem stopping myself from starting to guess on this one... I think
> > the vacuums is the key here, find where the vacuums turn up around the car when
> > at speed :o).

> > /Christer

> --
> Regards,
> Bruce.
> ----------
> The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
> http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Byron Forbe

Physics

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> Part of the answer is that the grooved tires use a harder ***
> compound than slick tires.  The harder compound is required to
> combat "squirm", which has been discussed already.  The harder
> compound is obviously going to provide less grip than a softer
> compound would, regardless of the width of the tire and size of
> the contact patch.

   Still, the "squirm" factor is insignificant alongside the reduced contact patch and the
resultant increased load per square inch of tyre. Much as friction is far pre*** over
chemical adhesion :))

 Not if the axels are shortened.

Byron Forbe

Physics

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00



> > Okay, so lets talk about aerodynamic drag...o^)

> I know, I know, I know, I mean have some guesses :o))). When a car moves it
> leaves the air molecules that was behind it, so these molecules must be
> replaced, because vacuum is not acceptable within our atmosphere :o). This start
> of a vacuum behind the car will of course also pull on the car, thus drag. The
> principle is the same as in your vacuum cleaner, Bruce, it's as we had someone
> chasing us with a vacuum cleaner :o).

> With a wing it gets more complicated. Because the wing has forced the air
> upwards with speed it makes this air harder to suck in behind the car, hence the
> vacuum gets a little larger with a wing, and even larger with more wing :o).

> Now correct me :o).

   Sure will! :))

   This vacumn only occurs at high speeds and is more accurately termed "eddy" (or was
that Eddie?) or turbulance. Race cars and there wings are designed to be as
aerodynamically efficient as possible. They will enjoy perfect slipstreaming (shearing
effects close to the surface only) until the speed of air passing around them can no
longer act in a perfectly slipstreamed fashion and then eddies begin to form which is less
efficient.

    From memory, this is what this all means mathematically.

      Drag increases linearly whilst in perfect slipstreaming conditions.    ie   Drag =
Coefficient of drag (C) * Speed

       the Coefficient of drag (C) in this example is related to the slipperiness of the
surface (special paints, etc) and for the entire car would be some type of average of the
sum of all the bits of the car ie tyres, wings, driver's helmet, body, etc, etc.

   As different bits of the car enter into non slipstreamed behavior as speed increases,
then from this point the drag increases as the square of the speed.

       ie        delta Drag = C * (delta Speed) squared     (Not completely sure)

   So to use the front wing as an example, lets say it has perfect slipstreaming till
speed "Y" and that the speed of the car is Y + Z

    Drag =  [C * Y] + [C * (Z squared)]       (Not completely sure)

   I am rusty on this but you get the general idea.

   What a sim developer quickly realizes here is that trying to do this to complete
accuracy is virtually impossible since it would involve modelling every single outer part
of the car and all their different C's and slipstream thresholds. So what could be done is
to just give the entire car an average "C" and slipstream threshold (my guess is this is
where most sims stand for now with only linear/overall adjustments for different wing
settings) or take it a step or 2 further and just model the most important bits. Perhaps
model front wheels and susp boxs as 1 piece, same for rear wheels/susp boxs, front and
rear wings, and, of course, the body/driver/helmet. I would think we should expect the
body/susp/tyres/driver/etc and wings to be modelled independantly in modern sims. ie
adjusting ride height at the front and rear would increase/decrease drag/downforce and
changing wing angles would adjust the drag/downforce for them and these 3 things should be
calculated independantly and their sum be the overall areodynamic model of the car. Maybe
Mike Lescault could enlighten us on any plans in this area for Cart Racing 2 and how it
was done in ICR2 :))

Bruce Kennewel

Physics

by Bruce Kennewel » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

This morning at work, when we were having our morning tea, there was a
lull in the usual conversation about what we did on the weekend and who
won the football and wasn't the World Cup soccer great and how are the
kids and during this lull I just happened to say "I was at the start of
the footprint (of a rolling tire, not a sliding tire)and the *** is
actually a complex brew of various polymers - long chain molecules".

Well!  Did that put the kybosh on the conversation!! Talk about being at
a loss for words....the others just mumbled something inconsequential
and meandered off!

Thanks to RAS I am now able to astound my co-workers, my family and my
friends with my new-found vocabulary! Life is truly wonderful!


> Hi All,

> Understanding tires isn't easy.(etc)

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Bruce Kennewel

Physics

by Bruce Kennewel » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

"Axels" as in Axel Foley, Beverly Hills cop, or "axles" as in they stop
the wheels from running away from the car? :o)



> > Part of the answer is that the grooved tires use a harder ***
> > compound than slick tires.  The harder compound is required to
> > combat "squirm", which has been discussed already.  The harder
> > compound is obviously going to provide less grip than a softer
> > compound would, regardless of the width of the tire and size of
> > the contact patch.

>    Still, the "squirm" factor is insignificant alongside the reduced contact patch and the
> resultant increased load per square inch of tyre. Much as friction is far pre*** over
> chemical adhesion :))

> > Here is something else to consider in the narrower v. wider
> > tire debate.  Wider tires don't merely increase the tire
> > contact patch, they also increase the track width of the
> > vehicle.  That is, the center-to-center distance between
> > tires on opposite sides of the car is greater, which will
> > tend to increase the mechanical grip produced (like that
> > TV car commercial where they say "wider is better").

>  Not if the axels are shortened.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Pat Dotso

Physics

by Pat Dotso » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> With that stated, how does the recent introduction of grooved tires (in
> F1) have any bearing on the amount of grip which the tires provide?
> Although the contact patch is reduced there would be no less friction at
> work to keep the tires in the road. We were unable to figure this out. I
> hope you can succinctly explain this in laymen's terms for me :)


> > Part of the answer is that the grooved tires use a harder ***
> > compound than slick tires.  The harder compound is required to
> > combat "squirm", which has been discussed already.  The harder
> > compound is obviously going to provide less grip than a softer
> > compound would, regardless of the width of the tire and size of
> > the contact patch.

>    Still, the "squirm" factor is insignificant alongside the
> reduced contact patch and the resultant increased load per
> square inch of tyre. Much as friction is far pre*** over
> chemical adhesion :))

If we are talking about grooved tires, then I think squirm _is_
probably a major factor in determining how hard the tire compound
has to be.  We are talking about individual small blocks of ***
bearing the side load forces, rather than just a narrower slick
tire.  These smaller blocks on a grooved tire would be much more
susceptible to "chunking" than a slick tire would.  Even if total
contact area is the same, a harder compound would be required for
a grooved tire.

I thought we were talking about tires?  What if we lengthened
the axles?

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

Pat Dotso

Physics

by Pat Dotso » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00


>    Shit, I finally made it to the end! :)) So I now know what Tribology is and have a new
> parameter to play with - chemical bonding.

>    Now Jerry, let me throw a few educated ideas at you.

>    1/ I say that these chemical bonds are probably negligible under just about all
> circumstances compared to the friction effect.

>     2/ I say that 1/ is even more so at higher speeds where winged cars add massively to
> the downforce and consequently friction. Also, with or without wings, at high speeds this
> chemical bonding has less time to take effect and becomes even more negligable ie less
> time for chemical reaction to take effect.

I think that the "chemical bond" or "chemical adhesion" that keeps
getting mentioned
is simply the "stickiness" property of *** as it heats.  While I'd
agree that this
force is much smaller than the total friction force, it is hardly
negligible.  It is
the difference in lap times between your first lap after coming out of
the pits, and
your second or third lap.  A few tenths of a second gained by heating
the tires is
very significant.  I keep telling myself this as I wildly swerve during
my warm-up
lap :)

I don't belong to any tribe, but going back to the original question
from Simon - the
bulk of the difference between grooved tires and slicks can be boiled
down to the harder
*** compound required for grooved tires (the harder compound being
required
due to heat build-up caused by less contact patch surface area and
associated
squirm/chunking).  In a static situation, slick tires vs. grooved tires
(using the
same *** compound) should have no difference in the maximum friction
force they can
generate.  That would correspond to the equation for friction force,
which ignores
surface area.

Further, I think that in a static situation, wider tires vs. narrower
tires
have no difference in the maximum friction force they can generate.  At
high speeds
(and high temp), however, the larger contact patch of the wider tires
will provide
more "stickiness" adhesion, and they will be slightly faster.

--
Pat Dotson
B.S. Mechanical Engineering - Purdue University
IMPACT Motorsports

Christer Andersso

Physics

by Christer Andersso » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> You're right, the molecules don't know what's goin on more than a couple
> microns away. Let me try to explain. If one square cm has 100 bonds, then
> ten sq cm will have 1000 bonds. Each individual bond adds to traction and
> the number of bonds is dependent on the surface area of the contact patch.
> So bigger tires have more bonds and therefor more traction. Got it?

The bonds must be between the tyre and the pavement, of course, and not within the
tyre as I thought. These bonds are not present when the tyre is cold, but when
heated the tyre surface change to be a more glue-like surface and actually stick to
the pavement as a kind of glue and increase the grip by quite a lot I would guess.
Is this added grip proportional to the pressure on the tyre, when varying the
pressure at the same temperature, or is it constant within reasonable sizes of car
and tyre? It feels as if it is constant. Even a very light car would stick very much
to the pavement, if we only could get the tyres hot enough. The effect of course
varies with tyre temperature. Is this what you were trying to explain, Jer?

/Christer, keep grasping more and more :o)


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