rec.autos.simulators

Rally Championship 2000(rc2k) however is not a sim. Atm, only GPL
currenly holds the prize as being the only true sim around. There are
others that portray aspects of their real life counterparts, but sadly
lack in several areas to be allowed the title of pure sim.

An example is Nascar3. It's physics engine lacks because it does not
allow for use of accelerator and brake at the same time to allow
proper left foot braking techniques to be used, and has a canned spin
when accelerating from a stop.

Rally championship has quite a number of faults as well that makes it
an arcade-sim and not a pure sim.

*** Physics ***

By far and away, this is the thing that makes or breaks a sim. Rc2k's
physic's are on par with say scgt, or nascar3, but certainly not up
there with gpl or even viper racing.

The cars in rc2k handle pretty good... that is if you where driving a
go- kart. The steering even with the normal deadzone is ok. It's only
slighltly improved over the demos however. You still have that feeling
that your not driving a real rally car on dirt. Instead it feels like
your driving a go-kart on pavement.

Not that this is a bad thing. I actually enjoy rc2k because it feels
like a kart. However, this is not something you expect from a rally
sim.

In a rally car you get jolted around alot, and the steering reflects
this in sensitivity, where you have around 30 degrees each way before
you really feel that your wheels are going that way. Just watch in-car
rally footage. they work that wheel pretty hard. In rc2k, you only
really use that first 30degrees, and even then you mostly steer it
like a go-kart, where you only have to turn a little and the vehicle
does the rest.

The deadzone adjustements in rc2k don't help. They add just that, a
big deadzone.... It's not exponetial like in gpl, where you still have
steering even moving 1 degree off centre. In rc2k, you have to turn
that much, and then it kicks in... very poorly done.

Ok, so what about the actual car physics?

They are pretty decent. The car does not feel like it has enough
weight though. You can stop in 30metres on wet dirt, and the car
really does get airborne and takes ages to land.

Even saying this, the cars are still fun to drive, even though they
may not be modelled correctly. They handle like how a large go-kart
would on rough terrain :)

If you expect to see a realistic physics engine on par with GPL, you
won't find it here. But it is still pretty decent.

*** Setups ***

I would say this is the 2nd most important feature of a sim.

Being able to develop setups to suit your car is an underlying aspect
that all race drivers need to master. And the same should be for a
sim.

In rc2k, you can modify 6 aspects of your setup.... Yes, only 6!

Steering sensitivity, suspension height, suspension stiffness, brake
balance, tyre compound and acceleration/top speed.

They are all pretty simplistic. In accelration/top speed, you can
select from 5 options, ranging from high accel, low top speed, to top
speed, low acceleration.

Nope, you don't get to set your own gears... rc2k is not a pure sim
remmember :)

The tyre compounds range from slicks to snow. Pretty normal for a
rally game, and that's normally what the real  rally drivers get to
choose from.

You can't however change things like type pressures, camber, toe-in or
anything like that. Leave that to the real rally professionals.

The suspension settings are pretty simple too. Simple sliders for both
aspects, ranging from hard to soft for stiffness, and low to high for
height. Sorry, but there is no indepentant suspension settings... it's
a universal thing...

brake balance, self explainatory, and seems to work ok.

After playing rc2k for a while I experimented with the setups on 2
different stages.

The setup changes do affect how good and clean you can run your car.
For instance, running maximum suspension height, and low stiffness, as
well as fast steering and dry gravel tyres is fast on the bumpy gravel
stages.

Setting it to low suspension height and high stiffness makes the car
extremely hard and slow to drive on the same stage.

Overall, the setups in rc2k are ok. But they are really not refined
enough to be accurate to their real life counterparts.

I do not consider them on par with gpl or viper racing, or even the
arcade-sims like scgt, or even the dtr.

*** Damage Model ***

Ok, when we talk about rally racing, we talk about how extremely
dangerous it is. How your rally may be over even after the first
stage. How drivers run off the road and into a tree, and ruin their
rally chances...

Not so in rc2k. You can hit a tree at just over 100mph, and you will
stop dead! No problem, just stick it in reverse, then drive away.....

Proper crash dynamics make up a sim. In something like gpl on
realisitic damage, you hit a guardrail at speed, and flip. Race over!
In rc2k, you hit a tree, and just keep on driving. That's just plain
wrong in regards to trying to portray yourself as a sim!

Ok, well look at it from the POV of rc2k being an arcade-sim.

Yes, rc2k has a great damage model for an arcade-sim. While you may be
able to hit a tree at full speed and drive away, you do so at a cost
to your cars health, be it steering, cooling, engine, exhaust,
electrics, gearbox and such.

If u crash enough times...yes you hit a few trees...:) you might end
up with a broken gearbox, or even loose a wheel.

You will however still be able to get to the end of the stage...yep
even driving on three wheels you can drive all the way... even at
100mph on the bumpy straights!

When you get to the service area, you have a specified timelimit, as
in real rallying, and you can fix aspects of your car.

But unfortunately, you can't just fix something a little bit... you
have to fix the whole thing your fixing, with the predetermined amount
of time allocated. So if u had a spare 2 minutes left, you can't just
allocate that to fixing a bit of the bodywork.

You can run overtime however, and accept a penalty in time.

So how does the damage model rate overall. Probably on par with scgt,
or nascar3. gpl beats it hands down, and even dtr allows for the
ability to kill your car through abuse!

*** Tracks ***

Well, they are accurate and pretty.

It was mentioned a while ago that the developers added things in to
make the game "more fun", such as logs and hay bales. Sorry, but if
they want to claim this as a sim, they should remove them. They
actually make the gameplay worse, as you have to dodge "caution logs",
even when he forgets to mention not to cut the next corner because
there is a single log in the damn way...

Speaking of which, the co-driver is pretty decent. Fairly accurate in
his pace notes, and his mutterings do help you drive.

However, he f#$%es up often enough... On numerous occasions he has
read out something, or not read in some cases, and i've gone into a
corner expecting a number 2, and getting a number 5 corner...

A example of this was when I was driving along and he said 400 left
1...meaning in 400 metres we have a nice easy curve left. I get to the
corner, and am going through it, and _then_ he decides to mention the
30 hairpin left....slam on the brakes and go visit some of those
concrete trees...

Ok, back to the actual tracks. The major thing that bugs me is the
sticky grass. Put two wheels off and your car may as well be using
it's brakes. Sorry, but this is not true to life... you don't slow
down that much when you hit grass, especially if your already at
speed.

They did actually model the effect pretty well when steering on grass.
You do actually lose alot of your steering ability.

Anyway, other than the co-driver stuffing up, and the grass, the
tracks are pretty good. They are just as narrow as their real life
counterparts, and you can cut them on occasions. They are probably as
good as any other racing game, such as gpl, scgt or nascar3.

*** Graphics ***

Allways overated by many reviewers. They look at the pretty pictures
and they go WOW!

Sorry, but a sim is not judged by graphics alone.

The pretty pictures in rc2k are pretty, and you can see the dirt fly
from your front wheels. You get the rain, and the snow, and the night
time stages are very pretty.

On par or even better than gpl and dtr.

*** Multiplayer ***

An important part of any current sim, this makes or breaks the
longevitiy of a sim.

rc2k has it, but I haven't tested it yet.

No comparisons will be made at this time.

*** Sounds ***

Just like the graphics...Sounds are great. You get the wonderful
backfires, and all the authentic rally car sounds. Kewl :)

But, do they help you drive, as any good sim should.

Well, you get some limit of adhesion effects squels, but they really
don't help you much.

The engine will bump and burp as your tyres try to maintain grip if
you use too high a suspension setting.

Anyway, they are pretty good, but I don't feel they help you drive
like the sounds of gpl, or scgt where you can hear the tyre's squel as
you get close to limit of traction. Maybe this aspect would be hard to
be used in a rally sim.

*** Other Stuff ***

The menu's in Rc2k are ok... Main problem is, you can't use a mouse to
navigate the menus, everything is done via the keyboard. Yuk!

I Don't like the fact that you have to "unlock" the other
championship. If it's a sim, you would not have to do this.

Controller support is still as poor as the demo.

*** OVERALL ***

rc2k is an arcade-sim. I enjoy it quite alot, as I don't mind the
occasional arcade racer. It can't be classed as a pure sim though, as
it lacks in the two most important aspects of a sim, physics and setup
engines.

The title will get rave review's from the websites and game mags
around the place, because it is a good arcade-sim. If it really was a
sim like gpl, then you expect it to get bad reviews due ...

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Ian,

Thanks for the review,  having played GPL and I loved, but I do not have
time for a game like it RC2000 may be the ticket for me.  I really
apprieated the information you game onthe game and will probly buy it since
its what i am looking for,  major fun for a guy who messes about with PC
games a few hours a week.  My Solo ll car seems to take all my free time I
get due to three kids, a wife and a race car to feed.

Dave

I have never seen guys change their toe in just before the rally to get that
extra edge.  But then again, back in the 60s, do you think between practice
sessions they changed their ramp angles in the diff?  If a SIM should
accurately portray the racing of the times, how come GPL has so many options
for setup?

"In something like gpl on realistic damage, you hit a guardrail at speed,
and flip. Race over!"

Similar to revving the engine up to its max while shifting for hotlaps?
Shouldn't that car blow up? Oh wait, you guys don't even run with damage on
for hotlaps, so why should damage matter hehe. ;-)

"yep even driving on three wheels you can drive all the way... even at
100mph on the bumpy straights!"

I can do that in GPL.  I can drive with just 2 wheels at 100MPH in GPL.
Whats your point?

After reading through some reviews of this game, I have decided to try to
get a FAIR review.  You even said that since you were the best of the best
of the best, then this would be a fair review, but you are biased toward GPL
a little too much.  Yes it is a great sim, but that doesn't mean that
everything else is pure arcade.  We need an unbiased reviewer to review this
game.  I am not trying to defend the sim magnitude of the game, I'm just
trying to get the real facts, not the thoughts of an ego driven sim racer.
I read a review higher up in the newsgroup that had some good thoughts on
the game.  The review was NOT a GPL plug the whole way and gave the facts
straight out, then the opinions of the reviewer came at the end which left
you to decide what you thought of it.

Sorry for being harsh and negative but I have been getting fed up with the
biased reviewers out there that don't give a game a fair chance.  I want
some facts, not a biased review or a blatant ignoring of some questions (a
while ago).  So sorry for blowing up on you, just kinda been stored up for a
while.  I feel better now and will go to the mental hospital tomorrow.

oh and BTW hard does NOT mean sim.  Tell me, if you drove a Viper around a
race track at say city speeds, would you just spin off the track all the
time?  Would you get frustrated?  Now since it was easy to do, does that
make real life arcade?  Now in the definition of a sim, it does mention
accurately depicting real life correct?  Now driving around a track at city
speeds is real life correct?  But it's not hard, so it must be arcade?  Give
me a break.

JB

David

As far as comparing the two setup engines though, gpl wins hands down.

Here we go :o)

I've said it before, and i'll say it again, hotllapping is not a true
part of a sim. It is a fun thing to do to compare yourself to others.
It's not supposed to be realistic! It is arcade! That's why hotlaps
are driven on novice damage.

Most guys that race GPL, don't hotlap. They often use a setup given to
them, or tweak the default setup that comes with gpl, and they only
race with that setup... now that is sctually realisitic :)

btw, rc2k has an "arcade" mode too :)

heheheh, David G Fisher brought this one up in another thread :) He
said that you couldn't do this kind of thing in rc2k :)))) Well I
did....

You do realise I gave it 9/10 on the arcade-sim scale.... and yes,
that beats the other arcade-sims of nascar3 and toca2 :)

The review was not a gpl plug. I compared rc2k between nascar2,dtr,
scgt.... Yes, I used gpl more than the others, because it _is_ the
benchmark for sims. There is really no denying that.

That is the reason I included two scores... one for the arcade-sim
lovers, and one for the pure sim lovers.

I'm not an ego driven sim racer either. I drive gpl partially like an
arcade-sim, with my bizarre setups and speedshifting in hotlaps.

I like my arcade racers as well dammit! :) I've spent an awefull lot
of time in the arcade-sims like scgt, dtr, the nascar series, gp2,
nfs(x), name any arcade racer, or arcade-sim, and i've driven it, and
often had fun in it. Im not a pure sim driver :)

I gave you the facts from my standpoint. They are only my opinion,
just like any other reviewer :)

np, I can take constructive critisim :)

you are correct, hard does not mean sim. You make the comparison of
driving a car under the limit. Yep, that's easy, and would still be a
sim.

I'm trying to figure out what your point is...because I agree...what
is your point....

Ian

Oh I remmember now :)))

I said that reviewers would not like rc2k if it was sim like gpl where
you crash on the first lap, and your race is over, then it's no fun.

It's true, if rc2k had an accurate damage model, then hitting that
tree would end your rally. Many reviewers would get sick of never
ending a rally :) And they would mark it poorly for this :)

Ian

So what did you think of RC2000?

Ian: I had a lot of fun, but I hated it of course.

So you you hate having fun?

Ian: Of course not, but anyone can have fun playing this game, it
takes a real man to have fun playing GPL - the only true sim ever
made, blah blah blah. It should take weeks of practice before you
become good enough at a sim to actually enjoy it.

btw, I don't hate rc2k. I actually like it quite alot! It is a great
game, and I expect to spend alot of fun playing it :)))

Ian

JB

i too am sick of all the comparisons to GPL but i wont go on about it.
However i do feel that this is the best rally sim out on the market to date.
Once you get the controls figured out and can concentrate on the racing you
can start to appreciate the game.

i'm using a MSFF wheel on a p2 350 and banshee. The game screams along at
800x600 with the occasional sound glitch.

The cars do feel light but then again after taking my car up to 160 kph on
flat roads i know how much lighter the car feels ... it starts to float.

Just a positive review to balance the sides ... i wasnt going into the game
expecting GPL ... but then again i think those cars would really hate the
welsh goat tracks that they call roads <G>

back to your normal transmission

Shane
db_wolf

After a couple of hours racing it...  It's my big point against putting RC2k
at the level of GPL.  It's a very depth racing sim but that spoils it
totally for me.

Other things are :  Not being able to put FOUR axis on my wheel.  Why didn't
they implement that? I can have 2 or 3axis, but whenever I want to try
separate axis on Joystick2 it doesn't want.

I guess it's related to the point that RC2k can't model the usage of
acceleration and braking at the same thing.  Which is very important in
Rallying (throttle steering) and makes the experience fake for me.  But it's
still good.  Those 2 points are incredibly important at the end of 1999.
Note that they aren't the only one who don't implement the usage of both
pedal at the same time.  But it's the end of 1999, so I would expect that in
a software.  And yes even with the old Papyrus game engine <g>

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Marc.

Are you saying the cars do not feel too light at lower speeds--just at high
speeds??

Marc.

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy