rec.autos.simulators

When GP2 came out I made a steering wheel controller
and pedals with an analog clutch. I know the sim drives
fine without a clutch, but I think it adds to the realistic feel
of driving and great for at the start of a race and recovering
from a spin. I have been disappointed that no other racing
sims have a clutch. It seems that the game makers don't
bother with a clutch because the controllers don't come with
a clutch, and the controller makers don't bother because the
games are not programmed for a clutch.

When I first started the GPL demo it gave me the calibration
menu and I was pleased to see the calibration values that you
don't get in the W95 joystick setup menu. I then went to the
control assignment menu and saw a selection for a clutch!
I knew right then that GPL is a real racing simulator and not
just another driving game.
However I haven't seen anything in the demo for force feedback
support. I guess it would be asking for too much for a force
feedback steering controller with a clutch.

Now if only they made a shift controller that worked in an "H"
pattern to simulate the shifting in these older cars.

Good racing and keep the silver side down. :-)
D Sport Racer #74

Lutrell,

Thomas Enterprises is working on a H pattern shifter right now and we
already have an analog clutch built into the TSW and TSW 2 model, you can
even get a genuine Momo racing wheel and Momo pedal pads in two different
types :).

Trev

Great, but what software is going to support such a shifter? All sims
I know use two buttons for shifting, one for up, one for down. You
would have to have at least six, better seven buttons (no, make that
eight for six forward gears, one reverse, and one neutral) *and*
software support for this. Am I overlooking something?

--
Wolfgang Preiss       \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Uni des Saarlands       \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Trev

%   It really is about time we started seeing more sims with an option for
% a clutch.  Thank you Papyrus!!  Now, who out there can guide me to some
% instructions on how to add a clutch pedal into the extra slot on my T2
% pedals?  (I've seen this somewhere in the past)   I know this cannnot be
% hard but I need sources for parts and a new wiring diagram.  Anyone?
%   Also, what is up with all the new Force-feedback controllers that were
% due out a few months ago?  Has the bullshit lawsuit been settled?  If
% GPL doesn't come with FFBack support it will be a crime!  I mean if any
% sim was meant for Force Feeed-back, this is it!

Hmmmmmm...  Thrustmaster is promising some hot new wheel/pedal units
this summer....  Wonder if it will come with a clutch.  I know that they
keep their eyes on what's coming out of Papy's farm.

Speaking of this, both Thrustmaster and Papyrus seem to be holding back
on Force Feedback.  Both feel that there isn't enough in the package yet
to warrant much use other than "hand candy" (you know the kind that
melts in your hands).  I think both companies want to do FF real bad,
but both want to do it right and for the right reasons.  Papy has
already publicly stated that there just isn't enough in the current FF
package to warrant implementing it for GPL.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

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Finally, someone wrote what I've been thinking all along! These were
seat-of-the-pants  racecars. You need some sort of "feel" to let you know when
the rear is about to step out. I find in GPL that by the time I visually see
that the car is too loose, it's already too late! Maybe there will be a bit
more tire squeal in the final version as the car reaches the limit.  Practice,
practice and more practice....

The sound is beginning to grow on me! It sounds like the old Formula 5000 cars
from the early '70's. Actually , the F5000 car was a direct decendent of the
'60's GP car, just add slicks, wings and about 5 more years of development, and
you have a Lola T 160.
I know the sound will change for the real deal but I may hang onto the demo
just for fun!.

Don

Joe

Trevor C Thomas wrote :

Trevor... I would assume this. Correct me if wrong.

Let's think your in first.  Wheel understands your in first. If you go down
a gear, programs go in neutral (or reverse depending on the game). Same
thing if you upshift in second. Pretty simple.

For multiple shifts (like going from sixth to reverse). Well that's the
tricky part.  Maybe have the wheel understands that if your in sixth and you
go in reverse, it's like downshifting 6time (or 7depending on the game).
So would need an actual memory within the wheel, knowing each pattern (6-1 =
5downshifts, 6-2 = 4dshifts, N-4 = 4upshifts). Am I at least a little bit on
the track ?

Whoa can we say you'll need a USB port for the wheel ?  Hope you bring this
to life, I'm working hell to buy a TSW2 (heard some good news on the
T.g.s.n.  newsgroup).

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

: >Thomas Enterprises is working on a H pattern shifter right now and we

: Great, but what software is going to support such a shifter? All sims
: I know use two buttons for shifting, one for up, one for down.
: Am I overlooking something?

Yes.  It is possible to make it work for current s/w.  You seem to think
that it would only be buttons.  This would be difficult.  It would require
some sort of decoding circuitry to allow the thing to know:

a) Which gear is currently selected
b) Which direction you are trying to shift (ie up or down)
c) If you have skipped a gear or are in reverse
d) Send the proper amount of button pushes to the computer to emulate a
   H-pattern shifter
--
-------------------------------------

--
Wolfgang Preiss       \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Uni des Saarlands       \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Also, I guess the TSW model is based upon NASCAR with an H? How then
will it support neutral and reverse, and what happens when it is
confronted with the BRM's 6 forward, one reverse plus neutral?

Cheers!
John

What would be the expected price of the system?  I definately be interested
in this product, as long as it wasn't $800+.

matt

- Sim starts, shifter is in neutral position.

- I select first gear,
        shifter interprets: "we were in neutral, now we go into 1st"
        and sends one "gear up" signal to the sim.

- I shift up to 2nd,
        shifter interprets: "we were in 1st, now we go into 2nd"
        and sends one "gear up" signal to the sim.

- I skip 3rd and go directly into 4th (for whatever reason),
        shifter interprets: "we were in 2nd, now we go into 4th"
        and sends *two* "gear up" signal to the sim.

- I miss the braking point and end up facing some straw bale :)
  I go into reverse,
        shifter interprets: "we were in 4th, now we go into reverse"
        and sends five "gear down" signal to the sim.

Right?
I didn't think of it, but now it seems very reasonable. A setup like
this would be the closest approximation to the "real thing" we could
get with the current software. Can these things be bought somewhere
already?

I just 'invented' a different design that would come even closer to
reality, I think, but need collaboration from games designers. The
valuable resources this system would need are one joystick axis and
two joystick buttons (or two axes and no buttons, but axes are in
shorter supply). It would work like this: Imagine a box with a five or
six speed grate (or is it gate?) The shifter is mounted to a joystick
axis. If the shifter is pulled all the way to the left, the axis reads
zero, all the way to the right would be, say, 300. In addition, if the
shifter is pushed to the front (gears R,1,3,5), button one is
depressed. If pulled back (gears 2,4,6), button two is pressed. A
polling routine could now determine the gear by reading the value of
the joystick axis and the button. A reading of "approximately 200 and
button 1" would be 3rd gear, "300 and 2" 6th etc. Any axis value and
*no* button would mean neutral, and this would be the one great
advantage. Being able to shift into reverse *immediately* would be the
other.
The polling routine could read out the values for the shifter much
less frequently than those for steering and braking, so the additional
workload for the sim would be insignificant. The shifter unit wouldn't
need extra electronics or a separate power supply.

So I am a genius after all. Show me the way to the patent office!
Just kidding. :)

--
Wolfgang Preiss       \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Uni des Saarlands       \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

that was an interesting idae:) but it uses a joystick axis... which
i don't htink is a good idea, because the joystick port can only
support 4 axiis and 4 buttons, and we'd want one axis for steering,
one for accelerating, one for braking, and one for the clutch.
Now, my idea (gee, we're all inventors in this thread aren't we?)
is to use a binary combination of 3 of the buttons to indicate
what the gear selector is up to:

  buttons  function
  1  2  3
  x  x  x  neutral
  o  x  x  1st
  x  o  x  2nd
  o  o  x  3rd
  x  x  o  4th
  o  x  o  5th
  x  o  o  6th
  o  o  o  reverse

and that leaves button 4 for whatever we want - like the good old
middle finger salute or the horn or windscreen wipers or something:)

Grant. (inventor for a day)