rec.autos.simulators

I know I said my last post would be the last on the AI Matter but new
information has come to me in the form of E-Mail by the man himself
Adam Levesque  and here it is...

I believe he summed it up for you folks in his second sentence. "Are
we going to fix the AI in NASCAR2... no we are not."
                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^
So there you have it I'm satisfied that Papy/Sierra released a buggy
program (knowingly) before christmas with one very big bug that they
refuse to fix. Now they tell us that they are addressing these issues
in future products.  Mind you not future Nascar2 Products (go back and
read second sentence) because the man himself said they are not going
to fix Nascar 2 but yet they are "dedicated to making the best
racing sims."  A few of us in this Newsgroup have been saying this all
along and we were flamed heavily by so called Papyrus supporters.
Still even though Adam has pretty much shown Papyrus' true colors
there will be some of you that just will not get whats going on here.
I think its perfectly clear and if you still dont see it then it's
because you dont want to see it.  There will also be some of you who
do understand whats happening but wont say anything about it because
you like to walk the center on the fence.  That in my opinion is sad.
Well we finally got the answer we were looking for and its a big
relief that Adam with a very Non supportive attitude has pretty much
proved our case on the AI gripe.  I'm only wondering if any of you
will actually remember any of this when it comes time to purchase
Nascar 3?

Of course I have to jump into this one.  Here are my comments on the state
of the NASCAR 2
AI and on Adam's comments :

First, the AI for N2 is better than N1 - at least it is more aggressive.
Some of the tracks are provided
with a decent set of racing and passing grooves - some are not.  There are
also some alternative
AI grooves provided by after market authors free of charge - like yours
truly.  These can improve
the sim racing experience quite a bit - although they sometimes sacrifice
just a little in realism.
However, there are many other aspects of N2 that sacrifice realism - so
long as the sim racing
experience is more enjoyable and rewarding - this IMO is ok.

The problems that I think exist in the basic AI software model are these :
1. The AI cars should better choose the passing groove they use.  They
often choose the high
groove on tracks where that is the sure way to the back of the pack.  This
will cause the faster
cars to get caught in traffic they should be able to pass.  Code that
chooses a passing groove
based on the traffic being passed would help here.  In the LP file
modifications I make, I try to
midigate this by improving the high passing groove.

2. The AI cars should always return to the racing groove when not in
traffic.  I have had problems
where the AI cars run the low passing groove lap after lap basically making
them impossible to pass.
This occurs when the LP files are modified to speed up the low passing
groove - which improves
passing.  This is an unwanted side effect.  I end up making the low groove
very slow at one point in
the corner to get the cars out of that line and return to the racing
groove.  At Talladega, I have done
this coming out of turn 4.

3. The AI cars should draft together better.  What I mean is the faster
cars should draft together passing
slower traffic rather than breaking up and racing each other in slower
traffic.  This messes up drafting
at the big tracks and causes traffic jams on the smaller tracks.  This is
little tricky to implement without
stopping passing between the faster cars altogether.  However, it may be as
simple as making the AI
cars follow the faster car when all the grooves are tied up.  All too often
one car will pass and the next
car in line will follow the car being passed rather than dropping in behind
the faster car and also slipping
by.  The current implementation often gets the third car in behind the
first car passing now causing
the two faster cars to get side by side and causing a traffic jam.

4. The AI crews need to make better pit decisions.  This is the number 1 AI
problem.  I sent many
e-mails to Papy suggesting fixes to this.  The bottom line is that the
leaders should pit together under
caution - say when 50%+ into a green flag run and NO ONE should pit under
green when the fuel will
make it to the end but the tires are worn.  There should perhaps be an
addition parameter added to
the track.txt file that indicates fuel load limit along with the
recommented pit interval for the AI cars.

I agree to a point.  However, I did send Papy a good algorithm for pit
decision strategy well over a
year ago and N2 was released with the same unrealistic behavior.  It does
hinder sim racing
enjoyment when the leaders get seperated due to bad pit strategy - or worse
yet pit with 2 laps to
go at Dover, where the pit interval defined in track.txt still leaves fuel
in the tank.  This fix is actually
very easy to implement - I sent everything but the code - and I am willing
to write the code if that
would help.

Agree.  N2 really is a pretty good product.  It had good hardware
compatibility - which is always tricky
with a wide distribution product like this and is predictable.  It has some
bugs, but I have not seen or
heard of lots of random lockups etc.  I think Papy did a decent job
qualifying N2.

For the most part - the AI etc. is not that bad.  I personally would love
to get more feedback on
specific implementation changes suggested.  I was dissappointed that none
of the pit decision
suggestions made it into N2.   They were clear, simple and better.  Nothing
is worse than racing
for 3 hours with a group of cars just to have one of them make an
unrealistic pit call and get out of
contention.

I never expected this to be fixed after N2 was released.   Also, it is not
that bad !   I have reworked
other LP files for N2 and will make some available soon.  My latest
Talladega AI is actually pretty
fun - although the AI cars run up the track a little to make room for side
by side low side passing.  I
will make this available soon.  I have worked on some others too - most
recently rev 2 of Dover.
Even without AI improvements, N2 is a good simulation.  I have no intention
of boycotting N3
or other Papyrus products based on N2.  I would like to see some more
feedback on AI changes
in the future.  I would also be happy to prototype and test some AI
improvements if this will help - including
the pit decision algorithm.

I enjoy N2 and I am not in the business of taking things personally.
Boycotting N3 would only be to
make a point - and personally I am not sure what that point would be.  I
hope some LP file alternatives
will make you feel better about this - but if you are just taking the bugs
in N2 personally, then I suspect
this will not help.

/THansen

  I

Tom,

I would love to try the Lp file alternatives.  All I'm asking for is a
fix to what they (Papyrus) knew was wrong when they released it.
Which they have admitted knowing due to the previous testing.
Now they refuse to fix it. Only in future products, this is the part I
take personally.  All I want is a fix I would love to have a copy of
your LP's if thats what you were offering.  I myself however do not
intend to purchase future products because I feel they gave us the
shaft.  I respect your opinion and decision to stand by Papyrus.
I however have already been bit once, I can assure you I wont be bit
again.  Wish they had listened to you before they released it but they
had to make the Christmas bucks.

On AI:

I would like to see where specific AI cars run a little more inconsistenly
during a race.

Example you pass an AI car by sheer driving and horsepower, if you don't make
any mistakes you will never see that racer again. It would be nice that during
a race cars can run differently. That car you passed a while back is now
running hot and he just went by you. That would make it more challanging. It
seems (once you can race consistently) you are either alsways slower or always
faster than said AI depending on AI %. Now you can get it close but again your
still usually a tad one way or the other.

I just guess I would like to see some see saw action beyond your control to
really heat things up.

Q.B.M. (Who's been tied up to finalize my curret N2 projects) :(

: On AI:

: I would like to see where specific AI cars run a little more inconsistenly
: during a race.

: Example you pass an AI car by sheer driving and horsepower, if you don't make
: any mistakes you will never see that racer again. It would be nice that during
: a race cars can run differently. That car you passed a while back is now
: running hot and he just went by you. That would make it more challanging. It
: seems (once you can race consistently) you are either alsways slower or always
: faster than said AI depending on AI %. Now you can get it close but again your
: still usually a tad one way or the other.

: I just guess I would like to see some see saw action beyond your control to
: really heat things up.

Actually it is worse than this.  There has been a problem since IndyCar
Racing I, where the fast AI cars will drive super fast if they are ahead
of you, but slow way down if you ever pass them.  Once you hunt down and
pass a fast driver they seem to give up the spirit to race.  Too, bad,
since this is half the racing experience.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    Hmmm.. Im wondering how many permutations of lp files had to have
been tried before Papyrus settled on what is in N2? Must've been huge!
I'm sure they worked their butts off trying to find the best,   WITHIN,
and I stress that, the constraints of time and budget. When the end of
the day comes at your place of work and the order has to be shipped, or
the report filed, you stand and deliver. Sure, it can always be better
if you had the time and/or money.
    That they released at Xmas only to get "the bucks" is conjecture,
unless of course you happen to have some inside source of info to
that effect.
    I'm not trying to discount how you feel about the product. You
are entitled to your opinion. I just think that maybe you ought
to count it a victory that Adam reads this newsgroup and is working on
the only solution possible through his employer; that being the
Grand Prix legends and whatever further products slated to come out
in the future.
    Another solution may be to try QBM' altered files for the arcade
mode racing. ( I had em but through my unfamiliarity with extracting
them from his post, I lost em!:(  ) I understand that they provide a
more realistic and competitive ai.

regards,
Greg
Gavel  

Way to go Tom, although your post is a little long, you certainly have
articulated the state of the AI.  My feeling personally is that the AI
should be used as a practice tool.  Once you've mastered the AI, time to
move into online play. IMO the only way to get a true simulated racing
experience is racing against real people.

Thanks for your contribution to RAS  modifying files to improve everyones
overall Nascar2 experience.

Bryan Grauss

: Actually it is worse than this.  There has been a problem since IndyCar
: Racing I, where the fast AI cars will drive super fast if they are ahead
: of you, but slow way down if you ever pass them.  Once you hunt down and
: pass a fast driver they seem to give up the spirit to race.  Too, bad,
: since this is half the racing experience.

YES!!  This is the problem that has plagued EVERY racing game I have
played to date.

The only exception to this is an example like Michigan in ICR2.  I have
the AI cranked up quite a bit.  So, as suggested, I get by them by sheer
mistake free driving.  Then if I start getting sloppy I cannot run
consistent laps.  The AI can run much more consistent laps and they run me
down and sometimes pass me.

But that is the ONLY exception.  Otherwise, they just normally back way
off and I never see them again.

Tom,

Very well put. Sound just like music to my ears. I love the idea of making
the AI's better as this is the only issue N2 feels dissappionting.

I'm not a "code-wiz." myself so i'm not able to much in that area but,
might it not be a good idea if all of you "coders/programmers" who
understand this "language" worked together?

I will however be more than happy to assist you with some "beta-testing"

Best,

--
Ed_ - Norway

"Early on, the cars were getting faster and faster.  And with
good reason:  everybody was cheating."   - Richard Petty