rec.autos.simulators

by GK » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:16:20

Hi Guys,

Cable Internet has finally come to my neighborhood! I have some
questions as to the best way to connect my small lan to the Internet.

What I have.

It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router that
has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

I am looking at four different routers with ports:

D-Link DI-704
Linksys BEFSR41
Netgear RT-314
SMC Barricade

Another option is to buy a second IP address and continue to use my
hub. Sounds like the most trouble free. But then I am not running a
separate lan from the Internet. I do share files and printers across my
lan. Could be trouble!

So far, I only play N4 online, but who knows, that may change someday.
Also, only one computer so far is used for internet ***. If I decide
I want to host a small race online, does this effect my choice? What if
I want to use both computers to play online simultaneously?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Gary

by **Jan Koh** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:31:09

> It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router that
> has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

Gary, I've had no problems with my Linksys BEFSR41, when properly configured
it works fine. Now rather than open up a ton of ports for firewall-computer ***,
I usually just set my computer into the DMZ and race online. I hosted TPTCC races
last season using this technique, most had superb connections, and those that didn't
usually traced their problems to someone else's router somewhere else.

I would definitely use the firewall router. Blocks both computers in one
swoop, makes it easy to add others, and allows easy configuration if you
add more to your network. (Plus keeps people from snooping your interior
network)....

No, you can host no problem. I'm really not sure about racing BOTH computers
simultaneously (if connecting to a remote server), I would think that it would not
work, but can't say for sure.

However, you should be able to HOST races on one machine and connect from the
other machine, although I've not tested it, the HOST server is the one that has to
worry about connections, and if the other machine connects using TCP/IP, it should
be no different than connecting from a remote address. The other participants (outside
the firewall) should have no idea that one computer is inside, as it's then up to the
server to compute the vector/speed of all connected player cars...

Cheers!

--
?? Jan Kohl ??
SECURITY CONSULTANT
The Pits - http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Castle Graphics - http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Haqsa** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:48:39

Since you already have a hub, why not get a router without the built-in
hub? Might save some money, but I haven't really looked at prices
lately so I'm not sure.

I am using a Zyxel Prestige 310, which sits between my cable modem and
my hub. It works fine as a client for all games, but does not work well
as a server. I know 2 other people who had the same experience with
these boxes - great for clients, bad for servers.

One of those guys replaced his with an SMC router/hub/print server. I
don't know if it is the same model as the one you indicated. He does
not like it, but his primary complaint was about how unreliable the
print server was. I'm not sure how well it works for games.

He did say that what he has heard from other people is that the Linksys
is the one to get for games. I don't know why, and I have no personal
experience with it, so you might want to do some more research first.

That's not very specific advice, but I at least wanted to assure you
that you can play games from behind a router without any problems. And
I have also had more than one computer playing games through the router
at the same time. The router definitely has enough bandwidth. You may
find that some older games cannot distinguish between two different
clients with the same IP, but to the best of my knowledge most games
made in the last few years don't have that problem.

Lastly, a router gives you some extra security. Properly set up, a NAT
router is as impenetrable as any firewall. More so in fact, since a
router can be set up to offer a kind of mindless "deny everybody"
security, where firewalls are designed to provisionally let some kinds
of traffic through.

HTH,
Hal

> Hi Guys,

> Cable Internet has finally come to my neighborhood! I have some
> questions as to the best way to connect my small lan to the Internet.

> What I have.

> 1 Motorola surfboard 4100.

> It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router
that
> has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

> I am looking at four different routers with ports:

> D-Link DI-704
> Linksys BEFSR41
> Netgear RT-314
> SMC Barricade

> Another option is to buy a second IP address and continue to use my
> hub. Sounds like the most trouble free. But then I am not running a
> separate lan from the Internet. I do share files and printers across
my
> lan. Could be trouble!

> So far, I only play N4 online, but who knows, that may change someday.
> Also, only one computer so far is used for internet ***. If I
decide
> I want to host a small race online, does this effect my choice? What
if
> I want to use both computers to play online simultaneously?

> Any information would be greatly appreciated.

> Gary

by GK » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 09:43:20

Thanks for your advice. The reason I am looking at getting a router with
ports is that the price is not much different when only adding four ports.
The cost of the routers I mentioned range in price from $70 - $110. Plus I
get 4 100mps full duplexed ports instead of 4 shared 100mps half duplex
ports on my hub.

Gary

> Since you already have a hub, why not get a router without the built-in
> hub? Might save some money, but I haven't really looked at prices
> lately so I'm not sure.

> I am using a Zyxel Prestige 310, which sits between my cable modem and
> my hub. It works fine as a client for all games, but does not work well
> as a server. I know 2 other people who had the same experience with
> these boxes - great for clients, bad for servers.

> One of those guys replaced his with an SMC router/hub/print server. I
> don't know if it is the same model as the one you indicated. He does
> not like it, but his primary complaint was about how unreliable the
> print server was. I'm not sure how well it works for games.

> He did say that what he has heard from other people is that the Linksys
> is the one to get for games. I don't know why, and I have no personal
> experience with it, so you might want to do some more research first.

> That's not very specific advice, but I at least wanted to assure you
> that you can play games from behind a router without any problems. And
> I have also had more than one computer playing games through the router
> at the same time. The router definitely has enough bandwidth. You may
> find that some older games cannot distinguish between two different
> clients with the same IP, but to the best of my knowledge most games
> made in the last few years don't have that problem.

> Lastly, a router gives you some extra security. Properly set up, a NAT
> router is as impenetrable as any firewall. More so in fact, since a
> router can be set up to offer a kind of mindless "deny everybody"
> security, where firewalls are designed to provisionally let some kinds
> of traffic through.

> HTH,
> Hal

> > Hi Guys,

> > Cable Internet has finally come to my neighborhood! I have some
> > questions as to the best way to connect my small lan to the Internet.

> > What I have.

> > 1 Motorola surfboard 4100.

> > It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router
> that
> > has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> > users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> > way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> > can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

> > I am looking at four different routers with ports:

> > D-Link DI-704
> > Linksys BEFSR41
> > Netgear RT-314
> > SMC Barricade

> > Another option is to buy a second IP address and continue to use my
> > hub. Sounds like the most trouble free. But then I am not running a
> > separate lan from the Internet. I do share files and printers across
> my
> > lan. Could be trouble!

> > So far, I only play N4 online, but who knows, that may change someday.
> > Also, only one computer so far is used for internet ***. If I
> decide
> > I want to host a small race online, does this effect my choice? What
> if
> > I want to use both computers to play online simultaneously?

> > Any information would be greatly appreciated.

> > Gary

by **Philip D'Amat** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 10:30:29

Leave the hub, add a single port router (e.g., similar to the Linksys 4-port
on your list, they make a cheaper single port that will serve the purpose).
Then do this:

Connect the LAN router you buy to the hub you already have.(1)
Connect the PCs to the hub.

(1) On a small network like yours, you won't see much (if any) difference
between a hub and a switch - there's just not that much traffic.

I have a similar setup and it works great. Hint: Not sure about the other
routers on your list, but the Linksys BFR11 (or something) single-port (and

address (the Linksys), and you're internal LAN nodes will get IP addresses
from the built in Linksys DHCP services. You can also manually assign IPs
(and do other cool things) if desired through the Linksys' HTTP interface.
You can also lock down ports, or open them up. You can also expose a single

that node, if desired. All this is definitely cheaper - and more flexible

--

Philip D'Amato

> Hi Guys,

> Cable Internet has finally come to my neighborhood! I have some
> questions as to the best way to connect my small lan to the Internet.

> What I have.

> 1 Motorola surfboard 4100.

> It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router that
> has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

> I am looking at four different routers with ports:

> D-Link DI-704
> Linksys BEFSR41
> Netgear RT-314
> SMC Barricade

> Another option is to buy a second IP address and continue to use my
> hub. Sounds like the most trouble free. But then I am not running a
> separate lan from the Internet. I do share files and printers across my
> lan. Could be trouble!

> So far, I only play N4 online, but who knows, that may change someday.
> Also, only one computer so far is used for internet ***. If I decide
> I want to host a small race online, does this effect my choice? What if
> I want to use both computers to play online simultaneously?

> Any information would be greatly appreciated.

> Gary

by **Greg Campbel** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 10:36:34

> > It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router that
> > has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> > users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> > way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> > can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

I've had good luck with my Linksys. I run my host 'puter in DMZ and
leave my driving machine behind the firewall. Works fine; the only
problem is that VROC chat can take a little while (45 sec or so) to
initialize.

Hum??? I'm not sure how bad this would be. I imagine that a firewall
setup would be more secure. It all depends on what services are bound
to wht protocols. Keep your file sharing away from TCP, using NetBUI
for local stuff. Isolating each service to a seperate protocol is
supposed to make for a fairly safe system, even w/o a firewall in place.

I can verify that two GPL drivers on the local network _cannot_ access
the same remote server simultaneously.
We can race on two different remote servers or on a third, local
computer.

Put the host on DMZ so others can ping it and have zero delay access.

-Greg

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by GK » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:06:15

Hey Philip,
Thanks for advice and I agree with what you said about not seeing any real
difference between the hub and switch. I just checked Pricewatch, and the
difference in price is only $20. My hub is older so my thinking is to spend the
$20 to get a switched, full duplex network. May not needed today, but never
know what tomorrow might bring!

Thanks again,

Gary

> Leave the hub, add a single port router (e.g., similar to the Linksys 4-port
> on your list, they make a cheaper single port that will serve the purpose).
> Then do this:

> Connect the LAN router you buy to the hub you already have.(1)
> Connect the PCs to the hub.

> (1) On a small network like yours, you won't see much (if any) difference
> between a hub and a switch - there's just not that much traffic.

> I have a similar setup and it works great. Hint: Not sure about the other
> routers on your list, but the Linksys BFR11 (or something) single-port (and

> address (the Linksys), and you're internal LAN nodes will get IP addresses
> from the built in Linksys DHCP services. You can also manually assign IPs
> (and do other cool things) if desired through the Linksys' HTTP interface.
> You can also lock down ports, or open them up. You can also expose a single

> that node, if desired. All this is definitely cheaper - and more flexible

> --

> Philip D'Amato

> > Hi Guys,

> > Cable Internet has finally come to my neighborhood! I have some
> > questions as to the best way to connect my small lan to the Internet.

> > What I have.

> > 1 Motorola surfboard 4100.

> > It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router that
> > has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> > users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> > way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> > can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

> > I am looking at four different routers with ports:

> > D-Link DI-704
> > Linksys BEFSR41
> > Netgear RT-314
> > SMC Barricade

> > Another option is to buy a second IP address and continue to use my
> > hub. Sounds like the most trouble free. But then I am not running a
> > separate lan from the Internet. I do share files and printers across my
> > lan. Could be trouble!

> > So far, I only play N4 online, but who knows, that may change someday.
> > Also, only one computer so far is used for internet ***. If I decide
> > I want to host a small race online, does this effect my choice? What if
> > I want to use both computers to play online simultaneously?

> > Any information would be greatly appreciated.

> > Gary

by **Haqsa** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 12:34:21

Okay that likely means that GPL is not capable of recognizing two
different clients with the same IP address but different port numbers,
in which case no internet connection sharing scheme, hardware or
software, will work. If you want to run GPL this way, you will probably
have to buy two IP addresses. I still think that newer games will work
with connection sharing, though. I have not tried racing over the
internet yet, but I know in the first person shooter world connection
sharing has been possible with just about any game released since 1998.
I would think N4 would work just fine.

by **Greg Campbel** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 15:28:12

> > I can verify that two GPL drivers on the local network _cannot_ access
> > the same remote server simultaneously.
> > We can race on two different remote servers or on a third, local
> > computer.

> Okay that likely means that GPL is not capable of recognizing two
> different clients with the same IP address but different port numbers,
> in which case no internet connection sharing scheme, hardware or
> software, will work. If you want to run GPL this way, you will probably
> have to buy two IP addresses. I still think that newer games will work
> with connection sharing, though. I have not tried racing over the
> internet yet, but I know in the first person shooter world connection
> sharing has been possible with just about any game released since 1998.
> I would think N4 would work just fine.

AFAIK, GPL can be setup to use alternate port values. Would this allow
the router or remote host to keep the two local GPL machines from
conflicting?

-Greg

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by **Gunnar Horrigm** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 18:17:04

> It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router that
> has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

if you have an old 486 or some piece of ***like that just lying
around you might just want to take a look at floppyfw -- a
firewall/masquerading router on a floppy. it uses linux, but is AFAIK
incredably easy to set up.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

--
Gunnar
#31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
"a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

by **John Simmon** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 21:04:36

Get the Linksys with the four port switch. A switch allows better
throughput than a hub because each port is capable of 100mb instead of
sharing 100mb amongst each other.

Despite the advice I've seen posted by others, DO NOT make any of yyour
boxes a DMZ box. That will comprimise the security of your entire
network since you share files and printers. If you're not going to host
a N4 server, I don't think you have to do anything special on the
Linksys. To avoid problems, I would not use DHCP either.

> Hi Guys,

> Cable Internet has finally come to my neighborhood! I have some
> questions as to the best way to connect my small lan to the Internet.

> What I have.

> 1 Motorola surfboard 4100.

> It sounds like the best way to go is replace the hub with a router that
> has four 10/100 switched ports. But after reading several reviews,
> users seem to have greater instances of problems when connecting this
> way, especially online ***. Complaints of getting disconnected and
> can't see all the game servers are the major complaints.

> I am looking at four different routers with ports:

> D-Link DI-704
> Linksys BEFSR41
> Netgear RT-314
> SMC Barricade

> Another option is to buy a second IP address and continue to use my
> hub. Sounds like the most trouble free. But then I am not running a
> separate lan from the Internet. I do share files and printers across my
> lan. Could be trouble!

> So far, I only play N4 online, but who knows, that may change someday.
> Also, only one computer so far is used for internet ***. If I decide
> I want to host a small race online, does this effect my choice? What if
> I want to use both computers to play online simultaneously?

> Any information would be greatly appreciated.

> Gary

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development)
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting)
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

by **Jan Koh** » Sun, 01 Jul 2001 23:25:29

<snip>

Good point, John. I don't allow file/printer sharing on my machines, so I'm not too
concerned about floating it outside the firewall...

Cheers!

--
?? Jan Kohl ??
SECURITY CONSULTANT
The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com
Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 02 Jul 2001 00:12:53

> > > I can verify that two GPL drivers on the local network _cannot_
access
> > > the same remote server simultaneously.
> > > We can race on two different remote servers or on a third, local
> > > computer.

> > Okay that likely means that GPL is not capable of recognizing two
> > different clients with the same IP address but different port
numbers,
> > in which case no internet connection sharing scheme, hardware or
> > software, will work. If you want to run GPL this way, you will
probably
> > have to buy two IP addresses. I still think that newer games will
work
> > with connection sharing, though. I have not tried racing over the
> > internet yet, but I know in the first person shooter world
connection
> > sharing has been possible with just about any game released since
1998.
> > I would think N4 would work just fine.

> AFAIK, GPL can be setup to use alternate port values. Would this
allow
> the router or remote host to keep the two local GPL machines from
> conflicting?

I can't answer that since I don't have GPL. However I would guess that
the alternate ports are for the server. That's a pretty standard option
which allows you to run more than one server on one machine. But it
wouldn't fix the problem of GPL not being able to differentiate two
different clients with the same IP but different port numbers. The
problem is that NAT routing, which is the technology used by broadband
routers and internet connection sharing software, works by using the
router's IP address for all outgoing traffic, and just assigning
different ports to different clients so that it when responses come back
it can figure out which pc's to send them to. So no matter what you do
to the client pc's, if you are playing through a NAT routing device they
appear to the server to all be sitting on the same pc. If the server
only uses IP addresses and doesn't look at port numbers, it can't tell
them apart. Fortunately, as I said, most newer games are able to
differentiate clients by port numbers. But based on what you said
earlier it appears like GPL can't.

by **John Simmon** » Mon, 02 Jul 2001 00:12:01

> <snip>
> > Despite the advice I've seen posted by others, DO NOT make any of yyour
> > boxes a DMZ box. That will comprimise the security of your entire
> > network since you share files and printers. If you're not going to host
> > a N4 server, I don't think you have to do anything special on the
> > Linksys. To avoid problems, I would not use DHCP either.

> Good point, John. I don't allow file/printer sharing on my machines, so I'm not too
> concerned about floating it outside the firewall...

Hey Jan, why don't you guys at The Pits interview the various 3rd-party
developers that provide sim-related tutorials, add-ons, and utilties?
That would be way cool, and would give the "layman" (end-user) an idea
of what we do, why we do it, and what's in the works.

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
http://www.paddedwall.org/john

DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
http://www.paddedwall.org/demons

DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 (in development)
http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2

Barbarian Diecast Collector (460+ cars and counting)
http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

by **Greg Campbel** » Mon, 02 Jul 2001 05:05:24

> I can't answer that since I don't have GPL. However I would guess that
> the alternate ports are for the server. That's a pretty standard option
> which allows you to run more than one server on one machine. But it
> wouldn't fix the problem of GPL not being able to differentiate two
> different clients with the same IP but different port numbers. The
> problem is that NAT routing, which is the technology used by broadband
> routers and internet connection sharing software, works by using the
> router's IP address for all outgoing traffic, and just assigning
> different ports to different clients so that it when responses come back
> it can figure out which pc's to send them to. So no matter what you do
> to the client pc's, if you are playing through a NAT routing device they
> appear to the server to all be sitting on the same pc. If the server
> only uses IP addresses and doesn't look at port numbers, it can't tell
> them apart. Fortunately, as I said, most newer games are able to
> differentiate clients by port numbers. But based on what you said
> earlier it appears like GPL can't.

OK. Thanks for the clarification!

-Greg

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