rec.autos.simulators

I have been exclusively racing at Watkins Glen with different cars, Lotus
and Ferrari mostly.  Recently I switched my settings to all help off and
advanced trainer (basically the most realistic settings).  And I am having
many problems controlling the cars now, especially braking with braking help
turned off (keep locking those brakes).  I am sure that I will get used to
it eventually but there is one part of the course that I just cannot figure
out.  The area between the speed trap and the big bend.

I am usually in 4th gear when heading into the speed trap.  As I shift down
to 3rd and brake the car _always_ loses control and the rear end slides out
(or just gets squirly) and hits the guardrail on the left side just before
the "Big bend" turn.  I almost always spin or have to make corrections from
the grass.

Any suggestions are welcome..  I really don't want to turn any of the
driving aids back on though.

My setup is as follows:

MS Sidewinder FF Wheel, setup to accelerate and brake on sep. axis.
Diamond V550 TNT
P2 450
128mb ram
etc etc.

Before this wheel I had the new TM force, although I liked it at first it is
a piece of... how should I put this... crap!

I too had Athrustmaster control. Yesterday I recieved my MSFF wheel.
I can turn 106's at the Glen., with my T2.
Now I can't do shit.
My T2 had throttle and accelerator set at 40% and 30% - thats gives a lag time
when accelerating and braking.

The MSFF is very much more sensitive.

I would suggest trying to apply brakes and acceleration in smaller increments.
Know that this sounds like a big task but I feel this wheel is much better and
it will be a feel thing .

Stick with it.

Tony

There is a Sidewinder control panel with which you can configure your range
of motion for the pedals.  I am going to mess around with this tonight,
sounds like this would be just the thing to ease your transition.

BTW let me stress that IMHO I thought that the TM force wheel was junk.  The
wheel had this chinzy feel to it.  I thought something was loose inside.
Strangely enough I felt that I had better control with the TM product.  I
think that after tinkering a bit I will get back to that level.  The pedals
however I prefer over the MS ones.  But hey can get everything.

     - Nice and easy when depressing the brake.
       Pounding on it is a big fat no-no.

     - Your front end may be bottoming out under braking.
        Try raisin' yer front ride height.

     - Switch to Monza.   The Glen is a VERY tricky track.
        Monza first, then mebbe Spa.

S.C. "Gritz" Petty
Spectre Racing
http://members.xoom.com/Gritz/Spectre/spectreracing.htm

Andy.

--
Andrew Thatcher

www.f1onehitwonders.ndirect.co.uk

Specific points about your problems at the Glen:

Speed Trap is a flat-out 5th gear turn. If you come off The Loop at a pretty
good clip and accelerate hard through the gears down the back straight
you'll hit 5th well before Speed Trap.

If you're doing this going into Speed Trap, it's unnecessary and may be part
of you problem, if you're destabilizing your car and consequently forcing
yourself off line through a turn that has a very well-defined line. Noticed
you said that you had a TNT card. I seem to recall that even the OpenGL
driver may not support the "line" graphics. So in case you're not aware, you
need the be hugging the left-hand barrier going into and through Speed Trap.
(If you don't have the OpenGL driver, it'll make GPL much easier.  I think
it's still can be found at www.papy.com . A 3Dfx card will help even more.)
Stay away from the "marbles" on the outside of Speed Trap. When I discovered
that I could carry top gear full-throttle though Speed Trap I instantly
gained 2-3 seconds per lap, it seems.

Approaching Big Bend there are some ridges in the roadway that make it
especially important that your car be stabilized before you begin you heavy
braking for Big Bend. As your car comes off of Speed Trap, your rhs springs
are compressed. Give the car a moment to stabilize (i.e. flatten-out) before
getting *** the brakes. You'll spend less time polishing the barriers
and your braking for Big Bend will be much more effective. It's much better
to brake a little early for Big Bend than too late, so that you're not
wasting a lot of time in the marbles (or grass!) on the outside of Big Bend
and are not off line for the left before the 90. Use the sign on the rhs
before Big Bend as a reference point...as you learn to carry speed through
Speed Trap, don't start your braking as late as the sign, just use it as a
reference. Allow your braking point to move closer and closer as you get
more and more comfortable.

Finally, listen for tire squeal and smoke under braking. If you're locking
your wheels, you're not braking as effectively as you should. Remember, a
locked wheel: 1) has no directional stability (i.e. it produces little to no
lateral force for cornering), and 2) provides LESS braking force than a
rotating wheel at the limit of adhesion.

Study "Four Wheel Drift" by Steve Smith that came with GPL. It'll help a
bunch.

Good luck and keep at it!

You may want to try going into the speed trap in 5th gear , then when you
have completely straightened the car up, about 1/3rd of the way along the
straight, start braking to reduce speed for the corner, when you are about
2/3rd's of the way along the straight start shifting down to 3rd or 2nd for
the big bend, but try to do the braking and gearchanging while travelling in
a straight line.When you have slowed and are entering the bend then gently
start accelerating just a bit to balance the car through the corner.
 I think that by changing into 3rd before braking you are locking up the
rear wheels , which is what is causing the car to spin.
The best method for driving any car in GPL is to be smooth and keep revs low
when slowing down and changing gear, at least while learning the tracks.
Also the entry to the speed trap is important , Start from on the right
along the straight and turn in quite late to try and keep to the barrier on
the left as you go around because you want to exit on the left if possible
to be on the correct line for the big bend.

Are you getting a good frame rate? Less than 25 -30 fps can also cause
problems controlling the car.

Ian Parker
[ Finally into the 1;05's :-)) ]

I use F1sim wheel and i can't get better than 1'08 at Glen Do you see
diferences in lap times between the wheels?

thanks
kostis

Hi Kostis
           Yep its the Brake and Throttle that are the main things, I hated
the F1 sims they were just buttons, really bad. when I first used the MSFF
it felt like I had a bad understeer when going round corners which I never
had with the F1sim, I think its something to do with the "Direct input" and
"Generic" settings. But I learned to drive round it and my lap times came
down. the lap times for the F1sim are about 2 secs slower than the MSFF, and
I think that's down the lack of feel with the F1sims Brake and Throttle.

Andy.

--
Andrew Thatcher

www.f1onehitwonders.ndirect.co.uk

Ah, I think you're talking about the "economy version"...that's the one with the
*** little plastic pedals. The full setup has very good (IMO) all metal
pedals, the only problem being the lack of separate brake/throttle axes
(except on early batches).

I had a play with an MSFF setup and thought the wheel itself was...well...
'orrible :-) Never got as far as the pedals because I just couldn't find a
comfortable grip that allowed me to use the short gear change wossits
behind the wheel.

Andrew McP