rec.autos.simulators

Haven't been paying close enough attention....someone mentioned a TSW as quite
good but what it in English?  

Looking for someplace online with a good selection to choose from and real info
rathr than propaganda>

Thanks

(Don't use NO***in E-mail)

You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee,
Vigilantes Of Love

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

"We have been pleased in some ways to see that our impressions of
force-feedback have been correct. To our knowledge there has yet
to be a single postive review of a force-feedback steering wheel. "

        I love my TSW2 (modified+paddle shifters), but it's going to
be upgraded to a LWFF shortly.  I'm keeping the pedals :-).

        I also think TSW is a great company (incredibly good
engineering- economical and user-friendly), but their refusal to
acknowledge that FF is going to become a standard is troubling, and
will do them in sooner or later.  I honestly don't understand why they
can't incorporate FF.  Their mechanical skills would easily deal with
the motor/linkage, and surely they could contract out the elctronics
at a reasonable cost.  There's a big market out there for a FF wheel
that's not plastic, even at $500 for a basic wheel and up for top of
the line features.

        bob

Thats just the problem, there is NO WAY we can offer any kind of TSW or TSW2
with FF for anywhere near $500.00. This is the reason why you dont see any
high quality wheels with FF, it just isn feasible for a small company to do
this.

Obviously you dont have a clue about the cost of contracting electronic
components, believe me there is no way a small company could ever afford it.

We dont feel any pressure to offer FF since our sales steadily increase each
year and many of these sales are from former FF owners who have realized
that quality is more important than a gimmck.

Trev

I agree that from an engineering standpoint that it's intriguing.  I think
the way for any small company to go about this is to take the electronics
from an existing product (Logitech, Microsoft, Act Labs) and then build a
wheel around them.  This will add the cost of a "parts" wheel to the cost of
the final product, but I don't think that it's all that big of an issue for
an individual looking for a top notch force feedback wheel.

I wish I could help  you out on sites that offer mechanical info, but there
are not many to be found.  I have ordered several catalogs from gear and
motor companies.   I know the parts are out there and these companies are
willing to answer questions.  I also have a catalog from a company that
sells replacement Force Feedback wheels for arcade cabinets.  The entire
assembly is ~$500, but it's a hell of a unit with a monster motor.  The
problem is connecting it to a PC, again an existing 3rd party wheel would
probably be needed.

Any company that is interested in building a wheel, but would like to know
of customer interest can sign me up.  I asked all the biggies, Thomas, ECCI,
SRC, and Ball Racing and only Ball Racing said they were still
investigating.  ECCI has developed a wheel, but state the cost is
prohibitive in bringing it to market.  I'd buy blue prints from them if I
could, but I have not asked.

If anyone else has any desire in exploring  this issue,  I'd like to hear

-Andrew

ps.  I RECOMMEND ANYONE CONSIDERING A WHEEL FROM SRC
(www.mindspring.com/~srcwheel) TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL.  I know of at least
two dissatisified customers, and another that went through the same
situatiion that I am going through.  He eventually received his wheel, but
not without a fight.  Any lawyers here that care to lend a hand?

GPL seems to be the exception though, about this.

This whole FF thing has got me intrigued from an engineering
standpoint.  Are there any websites that document the software
interface and touch on mechanical considerations?

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

I to think FF is a gimmick !!
I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild.
After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it
couldn't be repaired )
By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild.
I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day .
So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now
People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I
think you will be quicker without FF
( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick )
I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1 ( non
FF )
I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !!

My two cents

Madhouse

If you are thinking of taking components from a commercial product and
installing them in a product you intend to sell, I hope you have a good
lawyer and a ton of money, you'll need it<g>!

Trev

Trev

I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely
realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this is only
true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually
come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in that it
occurs in any impact with anything else.

In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is
through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is
anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do with actually
turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have to provide
something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their only method
of doing so, they overemphasize effects.

Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to feel
that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive
products so its all a waste of time discussing it :).

Trev

Trev

As far as Logitech giving a rats behind if you bought their units at
wholesale, cannabalized them to install the FF gear in your own units,
I doubt it.  They made their money when you bought the product from
them.  I suspect that you are too much the "boutique" business to be
considered a serious competitor (particularly price-wise).  I am not
demeaning your efforts at the least, simply observing that they
probably shipped more wheels to CompUSA last month than TSW has sold
since the doors opened.

You could also likely OEM the guts from them, although your volume
wouldn't give you much of a break on price, but if your customers
really demanded the feature (considering you are a premium equipment
provider and charge accordingly) you could cover the cost of including
it and maintaining a position of being "state of art" with the big
boys.  Heck, Logitech would probably love it if you touted their FF
gear as being the best and that's why you use it in your premium
controllers.  Reputation is everything and you've got a good one which
with they would benefit from the association.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL