rec.autos.simulators

by **Pat Dotso** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

> You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any
> value to someone who is serious about PC racing.

Oh, I'm not serious enough about it? What about
Alison Hine?

(to quote Cisko) Duh.

Do you not understand the discussion of consistency
v. top lap times, or do you willfully choose to
ignore it?

Thanks for stereotyping (and insulting) all of us.
You are really earning a lot of respect. Just
keep repeating to yourself, "it's just a gimmick,
it's just a gimmick".

I now really believe you are simply incapable of
properly implementing FF.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Pierre Robitaill** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

> You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any
> value to someone who is serious about PC racing.

Better duck... :)

by **mad** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Hi Thomas

Since we seem to think about the same about our racing wheels I have a
little question for you
Do you think a good potmeter is beter then a digital one ??
There are a few IC's ( xicor , dallas ) who deliver a " analog " resistance
value to the gameport
They do that in 100 or 256 steps for a resistance of 100K Ohm linear
You can provide the steps for these IC's through optical way ( same as used
in mouse )
The advantage is the pots can never ware out ( I use bourns but have to
change every 3 months )
So I'am looking for a solution.
I can start to use spectrol or go for the digital version ( homebuild :)
I would like to know your thoughts on this.

If I didn't make my racing wheel then I would buy a thomas version !!
But I enjoy building and disigning my own very much !! ( about four years
now )

If my wheel is done I look and play with it and I am very pleased with it
But then I regret that it's finished and start to think what else I can
improve :)
So buying a thomas will never happen I think

THX in advance

Madhouse

> >Hi all

> >I to think FF is a gimmick !!
> >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild.
> >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it
> >couldn't be repaired )
> >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild.
> >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day .
> >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now
> >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I
> >think you will be quicker without FF
> >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick )
> >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1
non
> >FF )
> >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !!

> >My two cents

> >Madhouse

> You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any
> value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and I've
done
> hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any
> improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be
> slightly slower but not by a real margin.

> I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely
> realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this is
only
> true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually
> come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in that
it
> occurs in any impact with anything else.

> In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is
> through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is
> anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do with
actually
> turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have to
provide
> something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their only
method
> of doing so, they overemphasize effects.

> Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to
feel
> that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive
> products so its all a waste of time discussing it :).

> Trev

by **Ronnie Bigwhi** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

OMG .....Trevor Im a very serious sim racer...and you know if you cant feel
anything from the wheel when you drive then I guarantee that you arent one
of the better drivers out there!

> > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any
> > value to someone who is serious about PC racing.

> Oh, I'm not serious enough about it? What about
> Alison Hine?

> > We own a LWFF and I've done
> > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any
> > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be
> > slightly slower but not by a real margin.

> (to quote Cisko) Duh.

> Do you not understand the discussion of consistency
> v. top lap times, or do you willfully choose to
> ignore it?

> > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to
feel
> > that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive
> > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :).

> Thanks for stereotyping (and insulting) all of us.
> You are really earning a lot of respect. Just
> keep repeating to yourself, "it's just a gimmick,
> it's just a gimmick".

> I now really believe you are simply incapable of
> properly implementing FF.

> --
> Pat Dotson
> IMPACT Motorsports
> http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

by **Ronnie Bigwhi** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I think you are lying to protect your own interests Thomas. Or you have
never really used FF with a sim that implements it well. Or maybe both. ;)

> >Hi all

> >I to think FF is a gimmick !!
> >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild.
> >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it
> >couldn't be repaired )
> >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild.
> >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day .
> >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now
> >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I
> >think you will be quicker without FF
> >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick )
> >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1
non
> >FF )
> >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !!

> >My two cents

> >Madhouse

> You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any
> value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and I've
done
> hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any
> improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be
> slightly slower but not by a real margin.

> I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely
> realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this is
only
> true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually
> come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in that
it
> occurs in any impact with anything else.

> In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is
> through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is
> anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do with
actually
> turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have to
provide
> something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their only
method
> of doing so, they overemphasize effects.

> Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to
feel
> that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive
> products so its all a waste of time discussing it :).

> Trev

by **Doug Bishop Jackson Mi** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Cheesh....didn't realize that I would open up this can-o-worms but it's very
interesting anyway.

For the record, since the original post I ordered a NASCAR Pro Digital. I did
find the Thomas site and was impressed but it looked a bit above my price
range....and I am too impatient to wait.....sorry!

Also....I wasn't in the least bit interested in FF! Having driven a stock car
in my youth I know it would take a lot more than anything they can put itno a
steering wheel clamped to my desk to be realistic.....maybe they should include
a 5 point harness with the FF wheels...

Just hope the Pro Digital isn't a bust.....

Thanks for all the input.

(Don't use NO***in E-mail)

You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee,
Vigilantes Of Love

by **Tracey A Mille** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Of course he is Ronnie. If anyone looks to a guy that makes his living
selling non-force feedback wheels for an objective opinion on FF they
are being foolish.

I wouldn't expect him to say "wow, the ACT Labs wheel feels great"
<G>, and it doesn't surprise me at all to see him throwing the "toy"
and "gimmick" descriptions around.

The ECCI and Hyperstim guys do the same thing. The writing is on the
wall for their products, so they are telling us it is nothing but
graffiti.

If they don't figure out a way to do force feedback they might as well
switch to making pedal upgrade kits - which could be very lucrative.

> I think you are lying to protect your own interests Thomas. Or you
have
> never really used FF with a sim that implements it well. Or maybe
both. ;)

> > >Hi all

> > >I to think FF is a gimmick !!
> > >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild.
> > >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech
( it
> > >couldn't be repaired )
> > >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild.
> > >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day .
> > >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker
now
> > >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be
true but I
> > >think you will be quicker without FF
> > >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick )
> > >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster
F1
> non
> > >FF )
> > >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !!

> > >My two cents

> > >Madhouse

> > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it
of any
> > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and
I've
> done
> > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see
any
> > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything
it'll be
> > slightly slower but not by a real margin.

> > I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even
remotely
> > realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something,
this is
> only
> > true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have
actually
> > come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though
in that
> it
> > occurs in any impact with anything else.

> > In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver
feels is
> > through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very
seldom is
> > anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do
with
> actually
> > turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have
to
> provide
> > something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their
only
> method
> > of doing so, they overemphasize effects.

> > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will
continue to
> feel
> > that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy
passive
> > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :).

> > Trev

by **Trevor Thoma** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

> I think you are lying to protect your own interests Thomas. Or you have
>never really used FF with a sim that implements it well. Or maybe both. ;)

Well Ron, just think whatever you want because it doesnt matter at all to
me, you wont change my opinion on the FF issue. As usual this is turning
into the usual RAS "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of deal and so I plan no
more comment on the issue.

One other thing, I'm not the one in charge of Thomas Enterprises and I dont
make decisions on which products we do or do not produce, FYI.

Trev

by **Joel Willstei** » Mon, 07 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Trev,

I replied to several of your posts regarding FF as a gimmick. I not
only find it a real aid, but it adds a great deal to the overall driving
experience in GPL. Perhaps if you found a way to produce a FF wheel for
$500,you just might change your opinion.

Joel Willstein

by **aws600** » Tue, 08 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Why would they care, they've sold a wheel? When I purchase a LWFF I then
have the right to do whatever I want with it. I can't resell their
technology, but I can take parts out of it and install it and use it
elsewhere. I'm not talking about stealing their technology, but simply using
the parts.

-Andrew

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **Tinke** » Tue, 08 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Interesting you suggest that. Keeping it in the vehicle arena, what happens
to say those who take a VW, strip the body of it and use the running gear &
engine with a new fibre glass top and sell them (commercially) ?
Same concept surely and I can't see them being taken to court anywhere.

Tinker

>>I'd probably gut a LWFF just to do a prototype to see what the
>>response of a focus group of customers would be to the combo...

>>This whole FF thing has got me intrigued from an engineering
>>standpoint. Are there any websites that document the software
>>interface and touch on mechanical considerations?

>>Regards,
>>Brett C. Cammack
>>That's Racing! Motorsports
>>Pompano Beach, FL

>If you are thinking of taking components from a commercial product and
>installing them in a product you intend to sell, I hope you have a good
>lawyer and a ton of money, you'll need it<g>!

>Trev

by **aws600** » Tue, 08 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I really have a hard time understanding your attitude towards FF. The
computers we use and the devices we connect to them are used to simulate a
sport. I find it hard to argue that using FF does not help simulate the
sport more closely. Obviously there is currently not cost effective method
to provide G forces, panoramic views and fear to the sim racer. There is a
simple way to "simulate" road feel and that is through force feedback. Many
games may not implement it as well as it should be, but that does not imply
that it's worthless.

I have another problem with your agument towards FF, and that is that you're
faster without FF. This is really quite silly. I've never assumed that FF
would make me a faster or better driver, but it does increase my enjoyment of
the sport. I've never seen a review or any product hype that touts FF as
decreasing lap times. In fact, I fail to see how adding any amount of
realism to any sport should decrease the times or increase the scores. If I
was playing football, I sure as hell would be better if someone wasn't
pounding on me. If I was driving to the hoop, I'd have a better chance of
scoring if I wasn't hacked. And if I was trying to turn a sub one minute lap
at Daytona, I would be able to do it much better without G forces.

Obviously you don't enjoy FF and have no intention of implementing it in your
wheels. Your company doesn't have the resources to pull it off, but that
doesn't mean it's worthless. If I were you, I'd stick with touting the
benefits of the TSW and quit with the negative press towards something you
can't offer. It comes off as somewhat petty. I know that's not your intent,
but that's my impression.

-Andrew

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **Shum** » Tue, 08 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Yes but you have to keep in mind that cars themselves are not patented
heavily. If you investigate the Immersion Licensing agreements, and their
patents, you quickly realize that they have a "total monopoly" on FF for use
with home ***.

I would stay away from trying to "resell" a FF wheel derived from other
wheel manufacturer's parts... because it probably won't be the wheel
manufacturers that take you to court... it would be Immersion. You simply
CANNOT produce a FF wheel, sell it publicly, and NOT pay Immersion for
licensing. It's not "their technology" that they have patented... it's "FF
for the home *** industry" that they have patented. So you can still
create your own FF technology for use in home ***... but ya still have to
pay Immersion for the right to use your own technology in home ***.

Even Microsoft had to pay Immersion a licensing fee for their own
implementation a few years back. Now they have just adopted the Immersion
technology because their monopoly extended into the mainstream wheel
manufacturers, and the support soon followed in games.

It's not as easy as you may think... you'd think that Microsoft with all
their legal prowess would have found a loophole if there was one. You can
also bet that they already looked.

Cheers,

Shumi

> Interesting you suggest that. Keeping it in the vehicle arena, what
happens
> to say those who take a VW, strip the body of it and use the running gear
&
> engine with a new fibre glass top and sell them (commercially) ?
> Same concept surely and I can't see them being taken to court anywhere.

> Tinker

> >>I'd probably gut a LWFF just to do a prototype to see what the
> >>response of a focus group of customers would be to the combo...

> >>This whole FF thing has got me intrigued from an engineering
> >>standpoint. Are there any websites that document the software
> >>interface and touch on mechanical considerations?

> >>Regards,
> >>Brett C. Cammack
> >>That's Racing! Motorsports
> >>Pompano Beach, FL

> >If you are thinking of taking components from a commercial product and
> >installing them in a product you intend to sell, I hope you have a good
> >lawyer and a ton of money, you'll need it<g>!

> >Trev

by **ymenar** » Tue, 08 Feb 2000 04:00:00

LOL!

I would really like to see the long-time plan of those 3 companies. To the
eyes of now a majority of simracers, Force Feedback is not a gimmick
anymore, and of course, those people are the market for quality wheels. And
yes it's normal psychology that those companies won't promote concurrential
products.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

by **Mike Whit** » Tue, 08 Feb 2000 04:00:00

In your example, a VW was purchased (somewhere along the way) to make this
enhanced product possible.

If you are planing on purchasing the LWFF enhancing it, and reselling, then
you should be fine.

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