rec.autos.simulators

Brett,

     I been following this thread, and have even added my 2 cents twice to
it. But you're way off base. TSW would end up in civil court for patent
violations and huge fines that would most likely bankrupt the company. No
company would let someone use their technology without paying for it. They
certainly wouldn't take the position that since TSW feels that their FF is
the best, they bought the wheels  at wholesale, then used the parts.

     Every single sim producer has to pay for the rights to tracks, drivers
likenesses, cars, engines, tires, etc.  If you're going to make a buck, then
they want their share. Like it or not, that's how it works in the real
world.  That's why Pocono isn't in Nascar3. How many Daytonas are there?
Look at the deals that Eccelstone wants for every piece of F1. You can't
even do internet racing without paying for him for it.

      So the bottom line as Trev said is that they either design their own,
pay for the rights, or stay out of the FF market. Which btw isn't all that
big to start with.

Joel Willstein

Well... I remember not that long ago Papyrus had a similar "gimmick" stance on
FF.  From all the talk around here, they seem to have done a fine job with it
in the GPL patch.  Not so well in N3, the difference being the physics model,
so if N4 will really incorporate a GPL-like model I would think FF will be
excellent in it as well.  If that's the case, you will see many more new FF
owners.

My point... the users gave their opinion, Papy did their research, and put in
their hard work to give the users what they wanted.  I recently ordered my Act
Labs Force RS, with RS shifter.  For the past few years, I had thought about
putting aside money to buy a TSW or ECCI wheel someday, but am now glad I
didn't.  Even if I don't get a split second faster on any tracks in any sims,
the immersion factor that FF will surely give me will be just what I'm looking
for.  I'm looking forward to getting some kind of feel for the road and car via
the forces in the wheel.  I would logically think that I will develop more
consistent fast laps due to this new road/car feel.  The next big step for FF
will be a feel for the road and car through the pedals.  If someone can
successfully manage that it would immediately garner my attention.

Oh Trev... you probably should have just told us that TSW has decided against
implementing FF at this time and left it at that.  It's rare that a company
would make an "opinion statement" on a public forum and not be slapped around
for it.  Unfortunately, companies/businesses aren't allowed to have opinions.

Dave Ericson
MomoBoy online
JDB Racing

Andrew,

     You're missing the point here. You as a consumer can buy anything you
want, then take it about and use the parts in any way you want for your OWN
personal use. You don't have the legal right to do that with products that
you will sell without getting a license from the original maker

      Like it or not, it's the law.

Joel Willstein

Have you asked them?  There's a surprising amount of ego in this
business.

What does that have to do with steel, plastic and silicon?  Is the
hardware inside a LWFF wheel something famous that has marketing
rights?  Is it singular and unique, readily identifiable by name or
image?  That's what's licensed, not bits of material nobody sees.
Certainly there are patents, etc.  As someone else pointed out,
there's somebody who has a patent on FF technology for computer ***
and that might be considered as an issue, however, Logitech has the
license and the FF hardware was made and sold by them and they do have
a license and a portion of the procedes of the sale went to the
license holder.

Are you a patent attorney?  Involved in the upper eschelon of
deal-making in the high-tech industry?  If so, please present your
particulars regarding the foundations of your pronouncements on the
subject.  My observations are predecated on a quarter-century of
experience in the computer/high-tech industry and are a first-order
approximation of what might be possible based on everything I've
assimilated in experiencing how business is done in that arena.

Logitech is either in business to make money or they're idiots and I
doubt the latter is true.  If you put money in their coffers and do
not pose a threat to their revenue stream you have little to concern
yourself.  By all means it is sensible to have dialog with them before
commiting to a business plan, but when all is said and done... I WAS
REALLY ONLY SUGGESTING THAT IF TSW WANTED TO KNOW WHAT THEIR CUSTOMERS
THOUGHT OF A FF PRODUCT THEY COULD MOCK SOMETHING UP FOR CHEAP AND
FIND OUT EASILY.

Market research is pretty damned important if you don't know.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

There is a large difference between jury-rigging a setup and delivering a
well-tested and implemented product.  Sure Thomas could do a mock up, and maybe
pick up a few pre-sales to boot.  But the R&D required to mix and match
off-the-shelf components and have them really "match" (and perform reliably) is
far beyond the means of your average backyard tinkerer.

Thomas would need to procure a  _team_  of engineers at great expense, payable
upfront.   Then, the initial batch volume would need to be high enough to
increase the "economies of scale" for production, and decrease the cost of the
B.O.M. such that a competitive street price could be offered.

It's not that Thomas couldn't do it.  It's just that you guy's EXPECT Thomas to
be born with the ability to merely snap his fingers and produce a 7-figure
financial package for R&D/ start up.

Rick

The feedback is definately a big help in determining what is happening with
the car and as well as now putting in faster lap times I am also much more
consistent than I ever was before. I have also now got a LWFF and am equally
impressed with this product.... I certainly wouldn't go back to a non-FF
device now except if it was as a temporary measure if anything ever goes
wrong with my 2 FF setups.

I admit to now being a 'FF devotee' but would also consider myself to be a
serious racer as well, I don't see why there has to be a distinction between
the two.

Peter Hooper

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL