rec.autos.simulators

by **Alan Coate** » Thu, 10 May 2001 05:40:31

I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona and
have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I have actually
won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine.

HOWEVER - installed the patch.

1. just gone green - 3 cars on the inside turn directly onto the grass run
across it and rejoin causing an accident.
2. another occasion after green flag a group of cars just remain at pace car
lap speed. eventually after a few laps the lead cars crash into them.
3. again on a further race - the yellow came out. All cars decided to go
below the white dash line to run at pace car speed. When the race went green
they all remained there.

In fact I have not been able to run a single race without these problems.
(note I have not installed 3rd party thingies like nocd patch)

As I had no problem with the original install I've decided to return to it -
'cause it just pisses you off when you want to do some serious racing and
these stupid things happen!

I have the US version of the game

One other point - I thought the generally lower frame rates would be caused
(unlike Nascar Heat) because the AI cars would be riding their springs (as
GPL) but this is not the case, is it? The AI cars travel around the track
without so much as a jiggle almost like they are on rails. Disappointing
when I remember in the original Nascar game the cars in front used to wobble
their rear ends under braking. This seams to me to be a retrograde product
in that respect.

Alan

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 10 May 2001 08:38:00

From what others have posted here that is one of the next issues they are
going to tackle.(the Daytona cars running onto the grass.)
You should cross post this on the Sierra board for N4 and hopefully Eric B
or another Papy employee will pass it along.
dave henrie

by **Marc Collin** » Thu, 10 May 2001 12:47:46

How could they not know about that (gigantically obvious) issue by now? We
need to cross post the other 150 issues that seem to have escaped the
testers again.

Marc.

> From what others have posted here that is one of the next issues they
are
> going to tackle.(the Daytona cars running onto the grass.)
> You should cross post this on the Sierra board for N4 and hopefully Eric
B
> or another Papy employee will pass it along.
> dave henrie

> > I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona
and
> > have been doing pretty well.

by **Marc Collin** » Thu, 10 May 2001 12:48:45

Daytona is wrecked, but the AI at some of the other tracks is better. If
you had tried other tracks, you would have been cursing the original.

Marc.

by **Andre Warrin** » Thu, 10 May 2001 17:25:26

On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:40:31 +0100, "Alan Coates"

>I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona and
>have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I have actually
>won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine.

The AI at Daytona still has it's problems, and indeed, one of those
problems is that they drive on the grass as you said.
But the patch improves the AI at all the other tracks.. some people
think they back off too easily now, I agree somewhat, but I've had
excellent races now with the AI (full 43 car field), even at a
nightmare track like Bristol. Before the patch I hated driving against
the AI, it was like racing with 42 Stevie Wonders on the track.

The list of things that the patch fixes is huge, you can't expect them
to fix every single problem in the first patch of such a complicated
sim (or we had to wait for another couple of months for the patch to
arrive..)

I have full confidence that the remaining problems will also be fixed
(we're talking about Papy here, right DGF?) so in the meantime enjoy
the AI at the other tracks and race Daytona online.

Andre

by **dirk simpso** » Fri, 11 May 2001 07:55:48

It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge
patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch.
If a game is released as a product you BUY you should EXPECT the product to
function correctly.in this case its supposed to be a race car simulator
which the guy has purchased,and it is not functioning as it should. I think
he's entitled to be annoyed. why should he be an un-paid tester? why should
he pay to test ?? . its not a case of a few isolated types of computer
configuration not agreeing with the game,its a basic flaw in game AI. across
the board,no exceptions.
Stop making excuses for the companies who are taking us for suckers. I dont
know of any other product that you could buy where people would be willing
to put up with ***that does not function in the manner it should.
I'm sick of ***y patches to the extent that I don't even think about
buying a game on release any more.I wait until all the post xmas patches
stop coming then wait some more just to make sure.(it don't always work, are
u listening ROWAN and you chunk of shite Battle of Britain which could have
been so good but you screwed it and did't even bother to fix it).

So your lawnmower has no blade . tough shit we are having a bit of
difficulty fitting blades to that type of mower,but you keep it until we can
be botherd to put it right for you,

> On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:40:31 +0100, "Alan Coates"

> >I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona
and
> >have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I have
actually
> >won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine.
> <sniperdesnip>

> The AI at Daytona still has it's problems, and indeed, one of those
> problems is that they drive on the grass as you said.
> But the patch improves the AI at all the other tracks.. some people
> think they back off too easily now, I agree somewhat, but I've had
> excellent races now with the AI (full 43 car field), even at a
> nightmare track like Bristol. Before the patch I hated driving against
> the AI, it was like racing with 42 Stevie Wonders on the track.

> The list of things that the patch fixes is huge, you can't expect them
> to fix every single problem in the first patch of such a complicated
> sim (or we had to wait for another couple of months for the patch to
> arrive..)

> I have full confidence that the remaining problems will also be fixed
> (we're talking about Papy here, right DGF?) so in the meantime enjoy
> the AI at the other tracks and race Daytona online.

> Andre

by **ymenar** » Fri, 11 May 2001 11:14:10

> It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge
> patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch.
> If a game is released as a product you BUY you should EXPECT the product
to
> function correctly.in this case its supposed to be a race car simulator
> which the guy has purchased,and it is not functioning as it should. I
think
> he's entitled to be annoyed.

The thing is, you can't ship a product and expect 100% of the customers to
be satisfied. That is the basic of *** development, one of the
fundamental rule developers agree with.

Should it have been held back from it's release? No way. Not from a
business point-of-view. Not even from a *** (to please the ***
crowd) point-of-view. We had waited enough, buggy or not it was time they
released it. The people having problems are quite minimal. Out-of-the-box,
N4 is a pure marvel.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **JJ Srickli** » Fri, 11 May 2001 11:33:50

I agree, Its a awesome sim.

by **Marc Collin** » Fri, 11 May 2001 12:06:24

Not compared to GPL or what it should be. Since the standards are so low
(NASCAR Heat perhaps?), people expect multiple patches over months after the
game is released. I agree with the poster above that issues like
fundamental flaws in AI should prevent release. It's not the same as minor
issues with certain hardware, or whatever. Releasing titles without split
axis support is another no-no--except that proves the tile is a total piece
of shit because it couldn't have been tested with split axis before
release!! Therefore it either has an inferior physics engine or was never
intended to be anything but arcade candy.

Marc.

by **Don Burnett** » Fri, 11 May 2001 12:12:36

Marc,

Do you know what is involved in getting things done in a patch? Any
possiblity there could have been more pressing things to fix at first?
Giving Papy's history, unlike some other developers, I feel very confident
they will continue to do nothing but improve N4 for everyone.
Of course, no developer will ever please 100% of the people 100% of the
time. There are some that probably simply should move on to something else.

--
Don Burnette
D Burnette in N4

Some people do nothing wrong.
The problem is, they do nothing.
And THAT is wrong.

> How could they not know about that (gigantically obvious) issue by now?
We
> need to cross post the other 150 issues that seem to have escaped the
> testers again.

> Marc.

> > From what others have posted here that is one of the next issues they
> are
> > going to tackle.(the Daytona cars running onto the grass.)
> > You should cross post this on the Sierra board for N4 and hopefully
Eric
> B
> > or another Papy employee will pass it along.
> > dave henrie

> > > I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona
> and
> > > have been doing pretty well.

by **Thom j** » Fri, 11 May 2001 12:19:56

Sadly go online. The patch seems worse there!! Poor Rating Pts now.
Getting ICs when hit in the rear by an over zealous racer & even on a
pace lap too..phew.. Then now the Latency & Quality are a 100-fold
worse then before the patch & much more... I never encountered any
patch that degraded a sim' before but this seems to be the case in N4.
What next?....Thom_j.

by **Don Burnett** » Fri, 11 May 2001 12:24:31

Love em or hate em, patches are always going to be needed for us pc gamers.
That's the way of the world now. Thank goodness we have the technology to
allow us to get these updates relatively easily.
By comparison, if you look at some other games, the N4 patch was really
fairly small. It was what, less than 5 mb? Hell, I've seen 15-20 mb patches
just to fix major problems with other releases.
Games are complicated gang, especially newer ones using newer technology and
complicated physics engines. Anyone seen a game come out that didn't need a
patch? Perfect out of the box?
How long does it take to download and install a patch? I'm not tired of it
at all, I would much rather have an update to a current game than to have no
updates at all.
Developers are really in a no win situation. They get hounded to get their
product released. The publisher, usually different than the developer,
presses them to get their game released. The public hounds them for release
dates and crucifies them when they miss it. Then when it's not perfect in
their eye, the get crucified once more.
Frankly, I am grateful we have developers such as Papy. I don't know why
more developers don't simply move over to the console market for the quick
and easy buck. That's where the volume lies. *** simming is a dying
breed. Look at what's happened to the flight sim market. I just hope the
same doesn't happen to our racing environment. Imagine being stuck with
games like Nascar Revolution.
So I say yes, keep on patching. I will gladly continue to install any
patches put forth.

--
Don Burnette
D Burnette in N4

Some people do nothing wrong.
The problem is, they do nothing.
And THAT is wrong.

> It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge
> patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch.
> If a game is released as a product you BUY you should EXPECT the product
to
> function correctly.in this case its supposed to be a race car simulator
> which the guy has purchased,and it is not functioning as it should. I
think
> he's entitled to be annoyed. why should he be an un-paid tester? why
should
> he pay to test ?? . its not a case of a few isolated types of computer
> configuration not agreeing with the game,its a basic flaw in game AI.
across
> the board,no exceptions.
> Stop making excuses for the companies who are taking us for suckers. I
dont
> know of any other product that you could buy where people would be willing
> to put up with ***that does not function in the manner it should.
> I'm sick of ***y patches to the extent that I don't even think about
> buying a game on release any more.I wait until all the post xmas patches
> stop coming then wait some more just to make sure.(it don't always work,
are
> u listening ROWAN and you chunk of shite Battle of Britain which could
have
> been so good but you screwed it and did't even bother to fix it).

> So your lawnmower has no blade . tough shit we are having a bit of
> difficulty fitting blades to that type of mower,but you keep it until we
can
> be botherd to put it right for you,

> > On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:40:31 +0100, "Alan Coates"

> > >I've been getting to grips with Nascar. I've only run a car at Daytona
> and
> > >have been doing pretty well. With AI at 100% and full field I have
> actually
> > >won a 50 lap race. Everything seems to work fine.
> > <sniperdesnip>

> > The AI at Daytona still has it's problems, and indeed, one of those
> > problems is that they drive on the grass as you said.
> > But the patch improves the AI at all the other tracks.. some people
> > think they back off too easily now, I agree somewhat, but I've had
> > excellent races now with the AI (full 43 car field), even at a
> > nightmare track like Bristol. Before the patch I hated driving against
> > the AI, it was like racing with 42 Stevie Wonders on the track.

> > The list of things that the patch fixes is huge, you can't expect them
> > to fix every single problem in the first patch of such a complicated
> > sim (or we had to wait for another couple of months for the patch to
> > arrive..)

> > I have full confidence that the remaining problems will also be fixed
> > (we're talking about Papy here, right DGF?) so in the meantime enjoy
> > the AI at the other tracks and race Daytona online.

> > Andre

by **Andre Warrin** » Fri, 11 May 2001 17:01:49

Thom, I never heard of these after-patch problems from anyone else,
I'm surprised.. L&Q a 100-fold worse? I certainly don't have that
problem after the patch.. are you sure it's because of the patch?
Maybe you have general connection problems now?

Andre

><snipped>

by **Andre Warrin** » Fri, 11 May 2001 17:14:49

On Wed, 9 May 2001 23:55:48 +0100, "dirk simpson"

>It should have been held back from release if it needs such a huge
>patch,followed by another unreasonably large patch.

<snip>

Yesterday I bought the game 'The longest Journey'.
As allways, the first thing I do after I installed a game is go to
it's website to download the patch(es)
To my surprise there was no patch available!
This is really unusual. Allmost -every- game thats being released gets
a patch.

Granted, an adventure is MUCH easier to program bug-free than an
advanced racing sim with complicated physics, AI and multiplayer.
If this was a perfect world every game should be released without a
patch, but people make mistakes, even programmers do.
Releasing a sim like N4 or F1RC bug-free is allmost impossible.

But I agree with you that some games are being released way too soon,
with problems so obvious that you can only wonder how the beta-team
missed those errors. The only reason I can think of is the publisher
pushing the developers to release the game.

N4 should have been postponed untill the AI problems had been fixed,
like the patch did (mostly).
F1RC should have absolutely been postponed untill the AI and
multiplayer were fixed.. no, fixed is not the right word here.. untill
the AI and multiplayer actually WORKED.

But it's your choice to buy a game immediately after it's release..
Read the reviews after a game is being released, and decide if you
want to wait for a patch or not.

Andre

by **Ed Solhei** » Fri, 11 May 2001 19:21:55

> The thing is, you can't ship a product and expect 100% of the customers to
> be satisfied. That is the basic of *** development, one of the
> fundamental rule developers agree with.

I'm not sure the developers agree on this, but I do know that the "suits"
(read: publishers) *live* by these rules.. and they will continue doing so
as long as we - the suckers - accept it. Heck, it will probably get even
worse in the future.

The big problem with all software tho.. is that we - the customers - gladly
accept whatever is thrown at us - without really having any knowledge about
what's going on. We put our trust and lives in products that has been
developed without ANY warranties, gurantees or set standards.

*Anyone* can setup a company and start coding programs is he/she feel like
it.... without *ANY* requirements with regards to skill, [goverment]
standards, or "policing".

Can you *really* trust the guy that code your anti-virus software? - Or even
worse.. how about the company that made your accounting systems? Or what
about the CAD-system - your life and bread - you use at work... is that
made to any standards?

Aslong as we accept this and the publishers/developers are making money - I
find it hard to believe that the industry will change.

--
ed_
--
Note!
Return address is *not* my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail
mass-distribution company that have bothered me one time to many!
Eat this - suckers!

rec.autos.simulators

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!

N4 patch: is this a joke, or what!