rec.autos.simulators

Hi guys, I thought it would be worth going through each of the settings
options offered by RT and see what gave the best frame rates with the best
quality graphics (at least for one system).  While not all of you can
directly compare, it should give some in the sim community a decent starting
point.  It also raises some interesting issues with regard to the graphics
engine RT uses.

Here's the setup information for anyone with a similar system that wants to
run this and see how close it comes to these results.

System Specs:
CPU: 1.4 gig Athlon (not oc'd)
Mobo: MSI K7 Master (vers 1.0 BIOS) FSB=133, CM=10.5, AGP=4x
RAM: 512 MB, PC2100
Video: Asus V8200 Deluxe (GF3) - not oc'd
Video Drivers: 21.85 NV Ref (on Riva Turner)
Sound: SBL 5.1 Platinum
OpsSys: Win98SE (current updates, with ACPI turned off)
DirX: 8.1
Monitor: 21" NEC FE2100 (1600x1200x32 desktop @ 85hz refresh)
Controls: BRD F1 Sim Pro, with clutch (analogue gameport: 4 axis, 6 button)
Note:  BIOS and video card settings for D3D are as per the "Video Tweak
Guide" on Powersims website.

**RT Video Settings:
I just sort of guessed at what would be the best settings to start with,
knowing my system and how it runs N4 and GPL.  This wasn't so important
because I was going to test all the reasonable combo's. - so just needed to
pick something as a "mark" point.  This is what I used to start (sound was
set as Creative EAX @ surround):
    Display: 1600x1200x32
    Triple Buffer: checked
    Texture Quality: High (32bit)
    Filtering:  Linear
    Mipmapping: Linear
    Multi-sample: None

To measure the in-game frame rate I used Fraps with the min-max log.  The
"start" FPS below is initial frame rate when the stage starts.  Then I
activated the Fraps min/max log at the start of the stage, made the run,
turned the min/max off and looked at the log file to report the min FPS and
max FPS recorded during the run.  If I made any really bad driving mistakes
(like ending up high in some tree a couple hundred yards off the
course...lol...) I exited the run and started over.  The reason is because
if you stuffed yourself into a tree somewhere (or rock or what ever), the
damage and the "consistent texture of the tree" would cause the FPS to jump
(or drop) to abnormal levels, so I didn't want to count those.  Besides,
this was a good way to get several dozen practice runs in!  I also made
double runs at first, one with "automatic" and one with "manual" trans,
thinking that might make a frame rate difference, but it did not (at least
not on this system), so I stopped doing that after a few runs.  Any settings
I changed that had better results than in #1 below, was left in that setting
for the rest of the tests.

***Settings Parameters***                **Start**                **Min**
**Max**        **Graphics Quality**

1.  All set as above.                                45 FPS
47 FPS                57 FPS            9.2/10 (very good)
2.  Triple Buffer: Off                               45
47                        62                   9.5/10 (better)
3.  Filtering: Anistropic                           21
20                        23                   9.0/10 (not drivable - but
pretty)
4.  Mipmapping: None                             42                       43
52                   7.0/10 (too much flash)
5.  Filter/Mip: Nearest                             49
51                        64                   8.5/10 (some flashing)

Okay, so I went back to the original settings in number  #1, except left the
Triple Buffer unchecked (that was the best FPS and graphic quality of the
above set.  Then I tried:

6.  1600x1200x16bit                                49
51                        59                   9.7/10 (best color)
7.  1920x1440x16bit                                41
47                        58                   10.0/10 (awesome)
8.  1280x920x16bit                                  49
53                        114                  9.5/10 (lwr detail)
9.  1024x768x16bit                                  49
57                        117                  9.0/10 (lwr detail)

So that's it.  For me, running at 1900x1440x16bit, triple buffer=off and all
the other initial settings at the top, was the best.  The graphics at these
settings are breathtaking.  Its a "Kodak" moment for the entire stage run.
I also could have sworn that the FPS was going to be higher than it read for
this setting, because it just looked smoother and faster.  But, that could
be because of the high detail and awesome/realistic coloring of the
landscape, trees, sky, everything......that I could see further down the
track and that made it seem like the FPS was very high?

**Some Weirdness Behavior**
During this benchtesting, there were a few weird things that happened....I'm
just reporting these in case the guys at JW don't know about them yet, or
for grins.
    1.  The first time I selected the 1920 res, the music wouldn't play in
sync with the UI screens (it was also playing very fast, maybe 30% faster
than normal), and it didn't turn off when I went into the stage to drive.  I
drove about 1/3rd of the stage (UI screen music still playing) and exited.
The music was still playing.  I exited to my desktop, re-entered the game -
same thing.  Then, I rebooted - had no problems with this after that.
    2.  The desktop icon shortcut takes forever to bring up the RT program.
Sometimes as long as 30 seconds.  This was not an issue of the res.
settings, and it was consistent throughout the testing.
    3.  When exiting the game back to the desktop, sometimes the video setup
screen would still be up, sometimes it would pop up (like it returned) and
sometimes it wasn't there at all.  After a while, I started checking in
"control-alt-delete" and found that the RT demo was **always** still
running....and this didn't matter if the video setup screen was up or not.
I had to end-task from that point on to get the game to release from memory.
I wished I had discovered this before I had the problems in #1 above,
because I bet you that what happened was I actually had two different
versions of RT in RAM at two different res settings, and that is what caused
the UI screen music to lock.  I couldn't reproduce the problem, so that's
only speculation.

I had no other problems with this demo, except trying to re-learn how to
drive a 100 hp, mini-Cooper with front wheel drive as fast as possible
without dying!  I eventually was able to tap some of those driving skills I
learned back in the late 1980's when I drove in a few IMSA Firehawk races
for TC Kline, in a 16V GTI (VW) - Sebring in the rain was just a thrill -
not!  And, I also ran one of those in 1990 in SCCA, SSB class (for one
season).  Front wheel drive, low-horsepower race cars are the most
frustrating race cars on the planet.  They also take the most driver skill,
concentration and keen awareness of the car's attitude....than any race car
I've ever driven.  You make any mistakes, that's it - you can not make up
for anything with horsepower because you don't have any.  The guys who are
really fast in these types of cars (Randy Pobst, Peter Cunningham, Tommy
Archer and so forth) say that in order to be consistently fast in these
cars, you have to drive the car (mentally) about 30-60 feet in front of you
(mentally, you are always 30 to 50 feet further down the track than you
actually are at any moment).  It took me a while before I remembered that.

This sim is awesome.  It may well gain "shrine status" next to my bookshelf
copy of GPL.  Hey, this is kind of the GPL of rally sims, is it not?  The
only two things I thought it was lacking in was "no wheel spin" - that's
painfully missing.  And, no clutch - which would be a mistake to leave out,
IMHO.   In the more powerful rally cars coming in the final release, the
lack of wheelspin is going to be a major "missing" element of an otherwise,
very good physics model.

For those of you struggling with running this car fast (getting under
2:50's), here's a tip that helped me pick up a lot of time at first - while
learning how the car handles and what it wants from me as far as driver
input:

Map the handbrake to an easy-to-reach wheel button (I used the right button
at my thumb) and run for a while in "automatic" instead of "manual"
transmission.  This does a couple of things for you.  It gives you one less
thing to deal with (gear selection, especially when to downshift to avoid
lugging the engine) and it let's you deal with what the car wants in terms
of throttle and steering input.  When entering a #3 or higher turn, keep
your foot on the throttle (or lift maybe 10% max) but right foot brake just
a tap, to help point the nose of the car into the turn.  When you get the
hang of this, you can also use the handbrake instead of the brake tap, its
even more subtle and slows you down just a tad less.  After I got done
destroying a dozen cars or so (and listening to my co-driver's bitching,
whining, crying and chirping - of course, I countered with suggestions that
he call the turns out a tad faster so I could actually do something about
them instead of just "going along for the ride into the woods" along with
him) - I began running completed stage times around the 2:55 range....and
used the "automatic" transmission all the way down to a 2:44.  I went back
to "manual" and had a much better understanding of what the race car wanted
from me.  I got down to a 2:41.22 - so far.   I've probably made around 60
to 80 runs so far.  Good luck.

Tom

PS:  I saw somebody make a post somewhere that they did a 2:22 or something
like that?  Not on this planet they didn't do that!  When are the "aliens"
going to figure out that nobody cares how fast they are when they cheat?

What strikes me as odd is that I get the same FPS at 640X480 as I do at 1280X1096, and all points in between.  That suggests an
unexpectedly heavy CPU burden for a one-car demo.  GPL, N4, Nascar Heat and pretty much anything else I've tried have proven far
less CPU-taxing on my old PC in one-car mode and give much better FPS at the V3's 10X7 sweet spot. (heck; in multi-car mode, too)
Hmmmm...

Also; what's your "benchmark" on the sound?  I only have a CL SB 64 in my PC, but I'm not hearing any road/tire noise, any sound
landing from jumps, locking the brakes, hitting solid bits hard enough to flip the car, etc.  Nada.  The engine sound works well
enough, what there is of it.  The game's sound overall is particularly underwhelming to me.  Is there something that better
hardware's bringing out that I'm missing?  I hope so, since without FF and visible wheels, you need sound for feedback on what the
tires are up to.  Bit of a guessing game now, but still a lot of fun; down to 2:32 with room to spare.  Gotta keep that sucker
pointed straight, though; no DFV up there to bail you out.  Sorta reminds me of my old Sirocco...

TIA,

SB

PS - The game takes a long time to start here too when I have FRAPS running; otherwise NP.

< lots ;-) >

Once you can hear the sound (of the tires and engine), I think its fairly
good.  However, I have not run RT on my primary sim rig yet, that has the
good 3 dimensional sound system (the one I'm using now is a standard 5
speaker surround sound).  I also question if the rally mini-Coopers didn't
use some sort of racing carburetor?  If they did, the engine should be much
throatier sounding I would think?

It appears the demo sound wasn't tweaked for proper soundfield and balance.
I hope they fix this for the final release.  Here's what I have to do to get
RT to a "playable" sound spectrum:

1.  Turn off all the sound sliders except engine, FX and speech.
2.  Set the FX at 50% (to be adjusted up or down later to suit your tastes).
3.  Set speech to minimum.
4.  Set engine to max.
5.  When you actually get into the stage, crank your system volume until the
engine is plenty loud (I have to crank my volume up to around 50%...which is
really big on a 1000 watt surround amp).  You may need to adjust the FX
some, up or down, depending on how high you have to turn up your surround
amp.
6.  I also boosted the bass in the SB Live card to 60% and turned the treble
down to 55% (normally I keep them both at 50%, for GPL and N4).  Make sure
your volume sliders in the SB Live (or what ever card you use) are set to
100% (they are not by default) and dial in some EAX effects as follows:

What this does is as follows:  The reverb disperses the sounds around the
sound field.  From inside a race car, with you being surrounded by metal,
every sound bounces around so they all appear to be homologous within a 360
degree sound field.  The flange adds that "ting-ring" to the sounds which
you get from the***pit reflecting the sounds back on you rapidly and from
all directions (particularly the pop engine sound off the exhaust).  I use
the pitch shifter as a "personal taste" device to modify the "tone" of the
engine up or down according to my "ear" for what the race engine should
sound like.  I always use "chorus" at about 20 to 40 % for modern V8 or V12
engines, but not for older V8 engines since they don't rev very high and
where not multi-valve (nor did they used the modern tuned exhaust systems
like we have today).  The mini-Cooper in RT doesn't need any chorus, but I
listed it because its one of the default FX settings...and you need to make
sure its set to 0%.  Save all this under "Rally Trophy FX" and there you
have it.

Regards,

Tom

my old PII 450/V3-2000 relic! (15-25 while driving in
minimum except draw distance maxed; linear mipmapping and
define the other end of the spectrum for you! ;-)
1280X1096, and all points in between.  That suggests an
and pretty much anything else I've tried have proven far
the V3's 10X7 sweet spot. (heck; in multi-car mode, too)
PC, but I'm not hearing any road/tire noise, any sound
flip the car, etc.  Nada.  The engine sound works well
underwhelming to me.  Is there something that better
visible wheels, you need sound for feedback on what the
to 2:32 with room to spare.  Gotta keep that sucker
me of my old Sirocco...
running; otherwise NP.

It depends, actaully on the Mini. I have seen them standard in Cooper trim
with two small SU carbs, and also have seen them with an aftermarket
manifold and a sidedraft weber.  I think the Monte Carlo winners had the SU
carbs.  They are throaty since I have ran 1 3/4 SUs on a Volvo 142 and on my
current Solo II car before switching to Mikunis.  Also since the a Mini's
carb throats face the firewall you should hear a bit more it.  With a Weber
you actaully need to cut a clearence hole for the carb so it will be a bit
loader.

As for where you mentioned noise bouncing here and there inside the car I
will I have yet to find anything that really gives that. My Solo II car is
very different then any sound I have heard in a sim or wav yet. to give you
an idea the muffler now resides space where the passenger seat was and the
floor was modified for this, has a really rough and dinging sound inside the
car, and everyone says how great it sounds from the outside.  Inside it
sounds like a large vacuum cleaner( Big Carbs with stacks and no air
cleaners) connected to a guy jackhammering a sheet metal duct( false floor
ringing), and a bumble bee the size of a Suburban( the exhaust of the car)
all connected together.  I have never gotten a mic to really get the sound
right.

Dave

<extended T Pabst post snipped>

Good post there Tom, I just wish I had the video horsepower to run
1920 by xxxx. Just for a laugh I put it on 1600x1200 and got about 2
fps :P

Whilst we're on bugs, etc., I've found the mouse to be REALLY
unresponsive in the menus, about 0.5-1 sec behind my movements.
Frustrating.

A sensational demo, I hope the full game can indeed give us the GPL of
rally sims, certainly looks like it might.

Rafe Mc

Correct me if Iam wrong, but I always thought Rally Driving was about
getting from point A to point B as fast as possible, and allows for corner
cutting, driving of road etc. Its up to the driver if they want to risk
damage to their car in doing that. So I dont understand how you can say they
are cheating.

Andre

<lots of very useful info. snipped>

Does anyone else get a *severe* frame rate slow down when following
the ghost car?  It causes enough stutter on my system* to mar
playability.

Ian
--
Ian Riches
GPL Rank +2.36 Monsters of GPL +296.53

1.  Turned off all the sound sliders except engine, FX and speech.
2.  Set the FX at 100%
3.  Set speech to minimum.
4.  Set engine to minimum.
5.  Cranked speakers up until the engine was loud.

Results:

1. Crowd noise was deafening.  Flattering, but hey; maybe I really am worth it! ;-)

2. Co-Driver voice too low.  Fired him and hired Rosie O'Donnell.  (actually upped slider to pos. 2)

3. Still no sound for the following:
tires - either on road or grass
sound of hitting bumps, even big ones that launch the car
sound of tires scrubbing sideways as opposed to tracking
sound when landing from jumps
wind noise

Occasionally I get the slightest hint of some gravel noise when sliding in the later, faster parts of the stage, but it's barely
audible, even with the sound balance tweaked to unrealistically highlight the FX.  There are some nice layers to the engine sound,
even though it in the mini seems pretty feeble.  For instance, you hear the pitch change as it goes from bogging after a shift, then
through the meat of the rev range and finally a whine as it nears redline.  Downshift/decel sound is lacking, though.

Question for R.A.S. (or BugBear):  Do these sounds exist in the demo (or the final) and I'm just not getting them on my PC?  I hope
so, as there's a lot to like in RT.  But think the level of feedback, and thus immersion, would increase greatly if these sounds
were implemented.  There seems to be some good stuff happening physics-wise, but I'm at a loss for what the individual tires are
doing.  Makes it tough to go quickly with any degree of predictability, so you get quicker by trial and error to see where the
limits are, not by judging the feedback while driving.

Thanks,

SB

<snipped "sound" advice >

Which sound API have you chosen?  (It's on the video setup screen.)  Try out
several choices...who knows?

And, by the way.....and SBLive "Value" video card is about $30 bucks now
(even the 5.1 X-Gamer is about $60)....you might consider spending that to
rid yourself of the headache!  You know.  Besides, SB Live sound cards will
totally free up the CPU from dealing with sound at all = translates into
better FPS and that's a proven fact (long ago, in GPL).

Its definitely your sound card causing the problem.  All those sounds are in
the demo....though I believe the crowd noise needs to be separated from the
FX sounds.......so the FX sounds can have their own volume control slider.
Crowd noise is not subtle.....FX car sounds are!

Hope you get this dealt with, its an awesome sim.

Tom

(actually upped slider to pos. 2)
the later, faster parts of the stage, but it's barely
the FX.  There are some nice layers to the engine sound,
the pitch change as it goes from bogging after a shift, then
Downshift/decel sound is lacking, though.
the final) and I'm just not getting them on my PC?  I hope
thus immersion, would increase greatly if these sounds
physics-wise, but I'm at a loss for what the individual tires are
you get quicker by trial and error to see where the

Glad to know all those sounds are in there.  With the rest of RT being so nice, I'd guessed it was my old card.  As for upgrading to
a Live, the whole box is about to get replaced, probably with an Audigy card in it.  Just waiting for some hands-on r.a.s. reviews
with the Radeon 8500 before making the jump.  First it was waiting for KT266A boards, then it was AMD's XP's, now it's the
Radeon/GF3 thing.  It's always something... ;-)

Thanks for the feedback,

SB

SB

PC computing can't even model the amount of objects outside the track in
real-life.  It's sparse inside our sims.

I love Rally Trophy, but in NO WAY do real-life drivers race their cars like
that.  It's a shame that hotlapping in RT will simply be who can be the most
lucky by throwing their car like a madmen into the corners and hoping for
the physics to bring you back on track.  It's not realistic Rallying.
Multiplayer can solve this because you have one single attempt, like
real-life Rallying.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...