rec.autos.simulators

> >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news).  Things didn't
start
> >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I
> >think).

> >Ok.

> >>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming

> >> It's too dangerous on super speedways.  These guys are doing 220mph
pulling
> >> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concrete
wall
> >right
> >> on the edge.  Running in the rain would be suicide.

> >...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the
> >circumstances.  That seems to be a concept American race fans find
> >almost impossible to grasp  ;)

> >Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes,
> >but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even
> >on the Nrburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy
> >look like kindergarten.

> What's the average corner speed at Nurburgring?  Granted, it'd probably be
> worse to hit a patch of trees at 120 than glance off a wall at 220, so you
may
> have a point there ;-)

> >Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as
> >fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you
> >drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver,
> >any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when
> >the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on
> >Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge.

> I disagree with the comparison here, really.  Turns in road racing are not
this
> fast, and there are generally run off areas for safety.  I'm sure you'd
agree
> that there's a bit more room for error in a 100mph corner than a 220mph
one.
> Remember that these cars are setup with minimal downforce in order to
basically
> "barely make" the turns, plus a bit for passing maneuverability.  I'm sure
you
> saw the one fellow understeer straight into a wall.  I'm not sure if he
had a
> mechanical problem, but it's likely that he just got his entry wrong.  I
saw
> several other close calls like that.  That track is narrower than it looks
:-)

> I sat at the turn one entry.  Before the race began, there were two or
three
> guys on the track right below us with brooms and rags scrubbing one spot
for
> probably an hour.  The reason?  There was a crack in the track and water
kept
> seeping up through it even after the rest of the track was dry.  They did
this
> in two places in turn one.  Took forever!  Somebody thinks it's very
important
> that these guys don't hit any wet spots apparently....

> That first crash in turn one wasn't caused by water of course, but the
fellow
> just barely kissed the wall coming out of turn four.  He spun right at the
> entry to turn one.  He turned the wheel and the car just went around
before he
> even got into the corner.  Same thing happened last year as well to
another
> guy.  If just barely kissing a wall can***up the cars/tires that
badly, I
> cringe to think what would happen if they encountered a little water at
those
> speeds.

> F-1 races in the rain, yes.  They also have grooved rain tires and run a
lot
> more downforce than the cars at the Indy 500 run.  They're not running
through
> turns as fast either (although their lateral accelerations are often much
> higher than at Indy.)  Someone mentioned F-1 running at Indy in the rain.
Ok.
> The infield section is quite slow and there is some runoff space there.
They
> come onto the oval on the north chute and accelerate through "turn 1" and
down
> the main straight.  That's about 1/4 mile.  They're not doing 220mph at
2.5g in
> that turn.  Not even close.  And...  they're likely running a lot more
> downforce on top of it.

> >At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a
> >problem if you slam into it  <grin>

> Hehe, yeah, that's true.  A five car race running 90mph isn't going to be
very
> exciting though :-P

> >(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally
> >install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the
> >dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.)

> That's not really feasible to do I think.  It might not do much good
anyway
> since they'll cover that distance in a little over one second ;-)

> >Regards, Rudy
> >--------------------
> >GPLRank: -22

> Todd Wasson
> Racing Software
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

>because they can.

>pez

>> >> through (at least with what we saw on the local news).  Things didn't
>start
>> >> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I
>think).

>> >Ok.

>> >>>If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming

>> >> It's too dangerous on super speedways.  These guys are doing 220mph
>pulling
>> >> around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concrete
>wall right
>> >> on the edge.  Running in the rain would be suicide.

>> >...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the
>> >circumstances.  That seems to be a concept American race fans find
>> >almost impossible to grasp  ;)

>> At that point, why bother racing?  We watch for the speed, if a 'race'
>> doesn't have that, then what's the point?  Might as well go across
>> town to see the locals race.

>> >Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes,
>> >but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even
>> >on the Nrburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy
>> >look like kindergarten.

>> Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do
>> that ***on ovals over here.  Too many drivers would die, casual fans
>> would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end.

>> I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe,
>> we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are.
>> Accept it, because you're not going to change it.

>> >Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as
>> >fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you
>> >drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver,
>> >any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when
>> >the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on
>> >Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge.

>> >At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a
>> >problem if you slam into it  <grin>

>> >(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally
>> >install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the
>> >dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.)

>> Run-off area???  What the heck is that?  You don't have run-off areas
>> for ovals.  The closest thing you have is the retaining wall
>> *designed* to keep cars from going off the track (and into the
>> stands).  As to putting the wall 300 feet back, no chance.

>> This isn't Europe.  Thank God.

>> Mike

>the diff settings being the biggest.

>they do change front wing angles in the pits.

>pez

>> >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.
>> >Pathetic...

>> >> >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late.

>> >> >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck...

>> >> >  > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the
>> >> >> weather.

>> >> >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable
>> >> >channel), this was Boredom City guys.

>> >> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing.
>> >> Typical, but regretable.  The challenge in oval racing isn't sight
>> >> seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of
>> >> 200 (in this case) laps.

>> >Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutely
>perfect,
>> >every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) braking and
>> >acceleration.

>> > > Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the
>> >> action.  The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit
>> >> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race.

>> >Try watching an F1 car pit.

>> I have.  All I ever see is them fueling and putting new tires on.
>> It's actually rather impressive from a technical point of view, but I
>> never see them make any adjustments to the car.  It seems that all the
>> pit strategy is thought out in advance rather than developed over the
>> course of the race, such as is done in oval racing.

>> >> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were actually
>up
>> >> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked
>pretty
>> >> >boring to me, sorry.

>> >> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1),

>> >But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive and
>which
>> >requires skill.

>> Try passing at over 200 mph.  That does take skill as well.  One wrong
>> move and at least 2 cars are done for.

>> Really, I'd like to see Shumi at Indy in the 500.  No more super-team
>> to back him up with a super-car.  200 laps in a realatively equal car
>> with just the difference in how well prepared the team is for the race
>> and how well Shumi can call for adjustments.  I think he'd do well,
>> but I think he'd find it a lot more difficult that he'd imagine.  It
>> would be wonderful to see.

>> For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important
>> that raw driving skill.  If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently)
>> the odds of you winning go down dramatically.  The disparity in
>> equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with
>> only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset.  Not a lot of fun for
>> me.

>> >> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;)

>> >> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're
>> >> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention how
>> >> you do it.

>> >You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is far easier
>than
>> >in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series are artificially
>set
>> >up for a lot of passing.

>> Artificially set up?  How so?  I described passing in general, not
>> limiting myself to any form of racing.  It holds true in karts, stock
>> cars, sprints, touring cars, open wheels, anything short of rally
>> (where you don't have 2 cars in the same stretch of road - at least
>> not by design).

>> I like my ovals and I like them on asphalt.  That's my choice.
>> Occasionally I like to see a road course being used by cars designed
>> to run on them (ie. not stock cars) where a single manufacture isn't
>> allowed to dominate (ie. F1) through sheer engineering/ $.  That's my
>> preference.  Others might (do) like what I don't, and that's their
>> choice.  Good for them.  But to knock NASCAR/Indycar for their style
>> is childish at best - particularly if it's just because you don't like
>> them.

>> Mike

>[snip antecedents]

>>Racing in the rain may be fine over there, we're just not about to do
>>that ***on ovals over here.  Too many drivers would die, casual fans
>>would be horrified, and racing would come to an abrupt end.  

>>I'm sure that there are technical reasons that y'all do it in Europe,
>>we've just chosen not to go that route for whatever the reasons are.
>>Accept it, because you're not going to change it.

>I thought one technical reason was that the treaded tires
>would shred because of all the lateral G's, and hence
>wouldn't last more than a few laps...

>         John DiFool

> Mike

> >you dont see them adjust the cars much during pit stops because of the
> >amount of changes that the drivers can make to the cars whilst on track.

> >the diff settings being the biggest.

> >they do change front wing angles in the pits.

> >pez

> >> >> >>>It makes me sick what this once great race has now turned into.
> >> >Pathetic...

> >> >> >> I'd have to say that was one of the better ones as of late.

> >> >> >Cripes, this was one of the better ones? Eeeeyuck...

> >> >> >  > The weather really messed things up, but, you can't control the
> >> >> >> weather.

> >> >> >Must say that as a European, (we did get it live today on one cable
> >> >> >channel), this was Boredom City guys.

> >> >> As a European you show a significant ignorance as to oval racing.
> >> >> Typical, but regretable.  The challenge in oval racing isn't sight
> >> >> seeing, it's how to run a consistently fast line over the course of
> >> >> 200 (in this case) laps.

> >> >Same as in F1, except you might have 15 corners to get absolutely
> >perfect,
> >> >every lap, with the added difficulty of actual (and massive) braking
and
> >> >acceleration.

> >> > > Perhaps you shouldn't have 'zapped by' but instead *watched* the
> >> >> action.  The pits are a facinating part of the competition and pit
> >> >> strategy and adjustments are crucial in winning an oval race.

> >> >Try watching an F1 car pit.

> >> I have.  All I ever see is them fueling and putting new tires on.
> >> It's actually rather impressive from a technical point of view, but I
> >> never see them make any adjustments to the car.  It seems that all the
> >> pit strategy is thought out in advance rather than developed over the
> >> course of the race, such as is done in oval racing.

> >> >> >Maybe it's just me, but apart from the bits where they were
actually
> >up
> >> >> >to speed for about 5 secs before the next yellow flag, it looked
> >pretty
> >> >> >boring to me, sorry.

> >> >> >> There was abundant passing (something that doesn't happen in F1),

> >> >But in F1 a pass actually means you've done something impressive and
> >which
> >> >requires skill.

> >> Try passing at over 200 mph.  That does take skill as well.  One wrong
> >> move and at least 2 cars are done for.

> >> Really, I'd like to see Shumi at Indy in the 500.  No more super-team
> >> to back him up with a super-car.  200 laps in a realatively equal car
> >> with just the difference in how well prepared the team is for the race
> >> and how well Shumi can call for adjustments.  I think he'd do well,
> >> but I think he'd find it a lot more difficult that he'd imagine.  It
> >> would be wonderful to see.

> >> For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important
> >> that raw driving skill.  If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently)
> >> the odds of you winning go down dramatically.  The disparity in
> >> equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with
> >> only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset.  Not a lot of fun for
> >> me.

> >> >> >You should've seen some of the (stupid) passes made today ;)

> >> >> Making passes involves not only being faster than the person you're
> >> >> passing but patience as to when and where to pass, not to mention
how
> >> >> you do it.

> >> >You're describing a pass in F1. Passing in NASCAR or Indy is far
easier
> >than
> >> >in F1. Get in the draft and then shoot by. Those series are
artificially
> >set
> >> >up for a lot of passing.

> >> Artificially set up?  How so?  I described passing in general, not
> >> limiting myself to any form of racing.  It holds true in karts, stock
> >> cars, sprints, touring cars, open wheels, anything short of rally
> >> (where you don't have 2 cars in the same stretch of road - at least
> >> not by design).

> >> I like my ovals and I like them on asphalt.  That's my choice.
> >> Occasionally I like to see a road course being used by cars designed
> >> to run on them (ie. not stock cars) where a single manufacture isn't
> >> allowed to dominate (ie. F1) through sheer engineering/ $.  That's my
> >> preference.  Others might (do) like what I don't, and that's their
> >> choice.  Good for them.  But to knock NASCAR/Indycar for their style
> >> is childish at best - particularly if it's just because you don't like
> >> them.

> >> Mike

>> I was at the race.  When the rain came on the last flag, we grabbed a
>bratwurst
>> and headed to the car.  About five minutes later the emergency broadcasting
>> system cut in on all the local radio stations and started announcing
>tornadoes

>this Bratwurst you're talking of... is it fried in fat / oil or
>roasted over a charcoal bbq? Just wondering how they do it over in the
>U.S. ;-)

>uwe

>Check out the corner speed through Curva Grande.

>In the wet.

>>Date: 6/2/2004 6:11 PM Central Standard Time

>>Check out the corner speed through Curva Grande.

>>In the wet.
>From here: http://www.fantasy-f1.net/circuits.asp?circuit=40

>Not sure how accurate this is:

>"Exiting the chicane leads to the long right-hander of the Curva Grande.
>Entering at some 155mph in fourth gear, you accelerate through the corner and
>reach a speed of 183mph in sixth gear on the exit. "

>That's in the dry...  At Indy, guys are entering the turn at well over 220mph
>(230?) (around 45% faster).  And again, there's no run-off area...  Double
>the
>speed and you're 4 times as dangerous...  Doing 220 is twice as bad as 155
>;-)
>F1 is also running quite a lot more downforce than IRL cars at Indy.

>Todd Wasson

>Mmmmm, making me want a Johnsonville soaked in beer and BBQ'd for dinner..

>Mitch

> >there is no locally controlled F1 feed anymore.

> >everything comes from Bernie now.

> When the Australian GP focuses on Webber and the Spanish GP shows a lot of
> Alonso, I'd say that the races are directed by local crews.

>>Mmmmm, making me want a Johnsonville soaked in beer and BBQ'd for dinner..

>>Mitch

> That's one I haven't tried yet :-)