rec.autos.simulators

by **Jason Moy** » Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:20:17

>The overiding factor was sheer lack of driving skills and lack of
>preparation by 2/3rds of the field. This race reminded me of a bad pickup
>race. I dont recall too many pass attempts that didnt end in a yellow flag.

The preparation part was there with the backmarkers who had no
business being in the field and would have never even attempted the
race if there hadn't been a shortage of drivers. Otherwise I think
you're pretty much spot on.

I have no idea why F1 teams look at IRL drivers as potential driving
candidates. Guys like Scott Dixon and Tora Takagi couldn't even
compete in the post-split talent-thin CART series, and they're regular
front runners (Dixon being a champion obviously as well) in the IRL.
If I were an F1 team looking for a driver I think I'd be more likely
to look at NASCAR/Trans Am/CART/ALMS since it seems that's where the
best drivers in America typically end up. Or I'd just grab someone
like Bernd Schneider who deserved to be in a competitive car 10 years
ago..

Jason

by **Bill Bollinge** » Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:24:21

Do you realize that the reason for most of these is because of the downforce
and engine package changes? I think you would see each of these type of
moves at any Dega/Tona race in NASCAR.

> On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:49 -0500, "Bill Bollinger"

> >Yah, kind of like when Newman spun Andretti tonight in the CC 600.

> Eh, wasn't really thinking of that at all.

> I was thinking more of the 3 big driving strategies that seemed to
> dominate the race:

> 1. last minute dive bomb passes - i.e. "well we're entering the corner
> and I'm not next to you yet, but I'm going to squeeze in there anyway"

> 2. last minute chop blocks - i.e. "wait you're trying to pass me?
> I'll force you down to the inside wall" - bonus points for the
> multiple times I saw someone do this when they were the high car in a
> 3-wide situation

> 3. simply driving straight into the wall - i.e. "welp, my car won't
> turn, so I guess instead of riding it out and adding some front wing
> on my next stop I'll just plow straight into the wall"

> Jason

by **Swerv** » Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:14:53

> For *me* the problem in F1 is that equipment is far more important
> that raw driving skill. If you're not driving a Ferrarri (currently)
> the odds of you winning go down dramatically. The disparity in
> equipment tends to make a F1 race a parade after a few corners with
> only preplanned pit strategy to bring an upset. Not a lot of fun for
> me.

While this is true, (and for some of us is what makes F1 great, that the
teams are constantly trying to make their car the best in the field, not
just the same as every other car), a lot more of Ferrari's success in
this case is Schumacher than the car, I believe. Rubens drives the
same car, and the BAR Hondas seem to be able to keep up quite well, and
last year, the Williams and McLarens weren't having a hard time keeping
up either.

That, of course, has changed a bit, especially McLaren...

by **Jon** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:40:15

Here's what would happen if they raced in the rain:
All the cars would wreck, Sarah Fisher would win and everyone in here would
still be ***ing cats and dogs on how they should have stopped the race,
lol.

> >>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
> >>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing
> >>out of the***pits!

> > There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding
> > Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed
then
> > get your facts straight and STFU.

> Well, lemme get *this* little fact straight then, mr. Logic:

> the organisers risked to stage a race when there were more than 20
> *tornadoes* registered around Indy? How's that for safety then, anyway?

> If there's tornado warning for the day, you cancel the day, and try the
> day after.

> If there's rain, why not race - unless there's little streams forming
> down the track. Apart from that, you drive slower. Just slow enough so
> you can make it. If the rain gets worse, you drive slower still. Until
> the point where you just can't see where you're going and things are
> really getting unsafe beyond normality.

> It's been done like this for, well, always here in Europe, I can't see
> why it can't be done in the States, really. It's just a bit of water and
> the track is just a bit more slippery, that's all. Can't drive as fast
> then, you say? Well drive slower then, that's what you do!

> Regards, Rudy
> --------------------
> GPLRank: -22

by **Ruud Dingeman** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:27:24

> Here's what would happen if they raced in the rain:
> All the cars would wreck, Sarah Fisher would win and everyone in here would
> still be ***ing cats and dogs on how they should have stopped the race,
> lol.

Well, doesn't that sound like a WHOLE lot more fun & spectacle, then?
That's a race people would still talk about in ooh, say 50 years, unlike
the current one! ;)

Regards, Rudy
--------------------
GPLRank: -22

by **Hans de Hee** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:37:16

Unless your name is Rubens Barrichello. In that case you *do* drive a
Ferrari, and yet your odds of winning are dramatically low.

Regards, Hans

by **Eldre** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:54:56

But, fielding an Indycar team probably costs a lot more than fielding a NASCAR
team. So financial woes hit open-wheel more than NASCAR.

Eldred
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by JM » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 02:24:46

> Asphalt Oval racing is not done in the rain anywhere in the world last
> I checked. None of the tire companies make wet weather tires for
> asphalt oval racing. Nascar has rain tires for Watkins Glen and Sears
> Point, but they choose not to implement it as this time. Since those
> are the only 2 races they could actually run in the rain, the
> drivers/car/and the teams really arent setup for it.

They race on asphalt short ovals in Britain and Holland every weekend, rain
or no rain, but I'm guessing that's not what you mean...

F1 also raced at Indy in the rain, which, while not using the oval
completely, certainly didn't lack for speed in the wet when on the oval
part. If they can do it...

cheers
John

by **Biz** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 05:59:10

What types of cars are they? Anything like 800HP, 3400lb cars with
relatively narrow tires? I would have to assume no, but I have no idea so
you'll have to enlighten me.

Thats only one turn of the oval, so the rain tires do take more abuse at
Indy than pretty much any other F1 circuit, but it isnt anything like
constantly pulling the treads off one side of the tire.

by **J. Todd Wass** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:25:33

>Date: 5/31/2004 11:11 AM Central Daylight Time

>>> Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
>>> (In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing
>>> out of the***pits! I never got this obsession with Americans stopping
>>> the racing dead with every little drop... In my view, rain is part of
>>> racing, never mind that it makes things more lively sometimes.)

>>There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding
>>Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed then
>>get your facts straight and STFU.

>I never heard ANY mention of tornadoes during the telecast. So, even I
>wasn't
>aware of them, and I live in Michigan. I think we can cut Rudy(from the
>Netherlands) a little slack.

>Eldred
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I was at the race. When the rain came on the last flag, we grabbed a bratwurst
and headed to the car. About five minutes later the emergency broadcasting
system cut in on all the local radio stations and started announcing tornadoes
that had been spotted (11 hit Indiana). One went as close to three miles from
my Dad's house where we were driving to. We crossed its path about 10 minutes
after it ran through a nearby neighborhood. Spooky way to end a race.

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
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by **J. Todd Wass** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:30:09

>Date: 6/1/2004 5:11 AM Central Daylight Time

>>>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.
>>>(In Europe racing's usually only stopped when the drivers are washing
>>>out of the***pits!

>> There were ONLY 26 tornados spotted in and around the surrounding
>> Indianapolis area today. Unless you want some of the fans hurt/killed then
>> get your facts straight and STFU.

>Well, lemme get *this* little fact straight then, mr. Logic:

>the organisers risked to stage a race when there were more than 20
>*tornadoes* registered around Indy? How's that for safety then, anyway?

>If there's tornado warning for the day, you cancel the day, and try the
>day after.

There is no such thing as a "tornado warning" until one has actually been
spotted. That morning there was some rain and a couple of fronts came through,
but there wasn't any sign that early in the morning of anything serious coming
through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't start
getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I think).

It's too dangerous on super speedways. These guys are doing 220mph pulling
around 2.5-3g in the turns on a rather narrow track with a concrete wall right
on the edge. Running in the rain would be suicide.

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
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by **Ruud Dingeman** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:20:50

> through (at least with what we saw on the local news). Things didn't start
> getting crazy until very late in the race (lap 187 was the final flag I think).

Ok.

...Unless you... guess what... drive slower and adapt to the
circumstances. That seems to be a concept American race fans find
almost impossible to grasp ;)

Look Todd, you know about Europe, we're not completely crazy (a bit yes,
but still ;) and we've always been racing even when there's rain. Even
on the Nrburgring - and in the danger department, that track made Indy
look like kindergarten.
Sure it's more dangerous, sure it's more difficult, sure it's not as
fast. But you adapt your car and your speed to the track, and then you
drive unless it's really getting out of control. But a race car driver,
any professional driver, ought to be able to control his/her car when
the track is wet (Ronnie Peterson was the master of this art). Even on
Indy and even with a concrete wall right on the edge.

At least when it rains you'll drive so much slower it won't be much of a
problem if you slam into it <grin>

(Of course, you could also put the wall 300 ft further back and finally
install a decent run-off area... It's not like running on Indy in the
dry isn't somewhat dangerous already.)

Regards, Rudy
--------------------
GPLRank: -22

by **ed ky** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:34:22

> ...Toyota will be here [at NASCAR] in just a
> couple more years. That will kill half the Dodge teams. ...

Since the engine makers decide who lives/dies/drives in
Indy/IRL, it seems likely the same "Internationalization"
thing will happen to NASCAR that happened to Indy once the
Japanese engines (and cars?) start winning. How many
"bubbas" are going to come to the races when the drivers
all come from Brazil and the cars all come from Japan? It
will be interesting to see empty stands at NASCAR races too.

- Ed Kyle

by **J.D. Elli** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:39:55

Ruud:

Beyond the safety concerns, I think a lot of it is just cultural differences
or "it's just how we've always done it."

Oval racing has traditionally not run in the rain, short track or
superspeedway, dirt or asphalt.

Road racing is no different than Europe. The only time I've personally seen
road racing halted was out of concern for the course workers when lightning
was in the area.

-jde

by **Greg Campbel** » Thu, 03 Jun 2004 12:23:46

>>>Two hours late, and for what? A little *rain*, for pete's sake.

It was a hell of a lot more than 'a little rain.

Eldred,

By the time the race began, most of Indiana was under a tornado watch.
Half an hour later, a tornado was on the ground SE of Terre Haute (~35
miles from IMS) and was moving NE towards Indy. I remember watching the
Wunderground NEXRAD loop with one eye, and watching Paul Page talk about
'showers' moving into the area with the other.

Later that evening the NBA playoffs went ahead as scheduled, nevermid
the tornado warning issued for Indianapolis.

Rather than face the very real danger severe weather presented Sunday,
sports organisations and the TV media choose to sweep the issue under
the rug. You've probably heard the phrase 'tombstone technology'
regarding the FAA's habit of understating/rationalising flight dangers
until the problem causes a crash. Only then is something done. Sunday,
two engines fell off the plane - disaster was at hand. Yet, since it
landed safely, "it's no biggie."

Feel free to drop into
http://www.stormtrack.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=22260#22260
for a first hand account from a race attendee. Hear what the organisers
did and did NOT tell the fans.

I realise that calling the race on account of severe weather (that may
not deveolop) is a hell of a decision to make. All I ask is that the
media and sports organisations come clean and tell Joe Race Fan the
truth of the situation.

-Greg

rec.autos.simulators

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