rec.autos.simulators

by **Paul Jone** » Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:00:00

This is something I've always felt. I find setups tedious and, frankly, I haven't
got enough time to monkey with bump lengths even if I knew what they were. I just
want to race. To have be at the top of some sims you need to be a driver and an
engineer (though I think in reality most drivers do have an intricate
understanding of how all this works). I've come to the conclusion that I don't
care if people call this or that racing game a sim anymore. What matters to me is
that I enjoy it which usually involves it being realistic as regards the car, the
road, the weather and what ever else is involved in the actual driving (rather
than racing) experience. I love your idea of simulated engineers and mecanics -
nice one :-)
Paul

by **Trip** » Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:00:00

> What is the relationship between how extensive the setup options are, to
> how realistic the sim is? Cant a sim be realistic in the fact that 'The
> Driver' is not asked or expected to make all kinds of intricate setup
> adjustments ..that *realistically* this is taken care of by a simulated race
> engineer/mechanic/what-have-you?

While real race drivers may not actually turn the wrenches to make
adjustments, one of the most important things they must do is
communicate effectively to the crew chief/engineers exactly how the car
is behaving, so in that regard, real life drivers at the highest level
are very intimately involved in the setup process.

Trips

by **BIG-** » Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:00:00

> > What is the relationship between how extensive the setup options are, to
> > how realistic the sim is? Cant a sim be realistic in the fact that 'The
> > Driver' is not asked or expected to make all kinds of intricate setup
> > adjustments ..that *realistically* this is taken care of by a simulated race
> > engineer/mechanic/what-have-you?

> While real race drivers may not actually turn the wrenches to make
> adjustments, one of the most important things they must do is
> communicate effectively to the crew chief/engineers exactly how the car
> is behaving, so in that regard, real life drivers at the highest level
> are very intimately involved in the setup process.

> Trips

But there's a difference between being involved and knowing EXACTLY what to do.
The basic adjustments (wing angles, gear ratio, car height) are pretty obvious;
suspention travel, brakes ratio and suspention packers are more difficult to
understand, and dampers and anti-roll bars are a complete mistery to me (even if I
know what they are used for). I'd like to be able to do a few laps, and then, a
virtual ingeneer could analyse the graphs taken from these laps (wich show my
driving style) and give me some hints as to what to change in my setup.

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by **Trip** » Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:00:00

> > > What is the relationship between how extensive the setup options are, to
> > > how realistic the sim is? Cant a sim be realistic in the fact that 'The
> > > Driver' is not asked or expected to make all kinds of intricate setup
> > > adjustments ..that *realistically* this is taken care of by a simulated race
> > > engineer/mechanic/what-have-you?

> > While real race drivers may not actually turn the wrenches to make
> > adjustments, one of the most important things they must do is
> > communicate effectively to the crew chief/engineers exactly how the car
> > is behaving, so in that regard, real life drivers at the highest level
> > are very intimately involved in the setup process.

> > Trips

> But there's a difference between being involved and knowing EXACTLY what to do.
> The basic adjustments (wing angles, gear ratio, car height) are pretty obvious;
> suspention travel, brakes ratio and suspention packers are more difficult to
> understand, and dampers and anti-roll bars are a complete mistery to me (even if I
> know what they are used for). I'd like to be able to do a few laps, and then, a
> virtual ingeneer could analyse the graphs taken from these laps (wich show my
> driving style) and give me some hints as to what to change in my setup.

I'd like to see something like that too... I don't know how hard it
would be to program an expert system to analyze your driving and then
make setup suggestions, but I'm sure it wouldn't be an easy task.

Another thing to keep in mind is that until recently, such detailed
telemetry analysis wasn't readily available... Only a few years ago, the
only information the crew chief and engineers had was what the driver
could tell them.

There's a great utility for Nascar2 called "N2 Crewchief" or something
very similar. It asks you a series of questions about how the car feels
to you on the track and then makes suggestions for setup changes... it's
pretty cool.

Trips

by **Trip** » Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:00:00

> Yes of course the drivers are involved with the setup process, but the 'craft'
> of setting up racecars is a job all unto itself. They are highly trained and
> technical professionals who interpret the drivers input, into physical changes
> made to the car ..they work as hard at all angles of setup as the drivers do
> in the driving. They are related but totally different jobs!

I agree, my only doubt is whether it would be possible to program such
an expert system into a PC game. If it were, I wouldn't be too surprised
if some of those highly trained professionals started worrying about
their job security...

Trips

by **John Hartridg** » Fri, 16 Oct 1998 04:00:00

TOCA Touring car game gives you this - the handling and performance
are sim accurate, but there are no set ups - just racing - and
yet you can still be competitive in the default car.

John

by **Johan Foedere** » Fri, 16 Oct 1998 04:00:00

> What is the relationship between how extensive the setup options are, to
> how realistic the sim is?

I think this depends on the type of sim. The difference between a game
and sim is its realism. If in one type of racing (e.g. Nascar) setups
are very important, than this should also be in the sim. If it is
something like GPL, than setup option are less important (or don't need
to be as extensive), because the only real changes in setup made during
a season were the gear ratios. And finally if you have a sim like NFSSE,
setups are not important at all, because no-one starts to adjust the
suspension of their new bought road car.

What remains is the question of how much of the setup needs to be done
by the driver?

// Johan

by **Michael Powel** » Fri, 16 Oct 1998 04:00:00

I could not agree more - at least as time goes on more and more setups are
available from people who have the time, inclination and skill to do the
testing and setups.

I did a degree in mechanical engineering so I know a fair bit about how that
stuff works, but I'm still more interested in spending time actually racing
rather than tweaking setups.

Also, probably most people would see far greater improvements working on
their driving technique with the default setups, than spending hours
tweaking.

- Michael Powell

by **Slowhan** » Fri, 16 Oct 1998 04:00:00

i'd like to have the choice to fumble around with the setups by myself
OR have an engineer do that for me! setups posted from others don't
really help a lot, because i have my personal style of driving. (maybe
that's why i'm always last?)

but you see ... if i can afford my own copy of GPL i can afford my
personal engineer too, who knows what to change, when i tell him:
hey jack! too much push in T3R!

maybe it can be done by an extra add-on for gpl. *hint* *hint* Papy ;-)
--
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by **Zonk** » Fri, 16 Oct 1998 04:00:00

CART PR had this kind of Engineer Wizard. I never really could decide if it
was a good or not thing.

Z.

rec.autos.simulators

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)

How important are setups for a sim? (to be a sim)