rec.autos.simulators

Regards, Rik.

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Todd Heckel
Lead Programmer

Really looking forward to the Trans Am sim. Hope GPL hasn't spoiled me
too much.

Marty

GPL is certainly a good product but I miss some things.

First the simulation of g-forces I still think is best done with sounds. The
moving***pit in GPL is probably to subtle and I only hear tyre squelling when
I've already lost traction (could be my sound card acting up?). A use of 3D
sound to hear the four wheels from where they should be could be a better
solution than just a moving***pit and tyre squelling when traction is already
lost. I also believe the tyre squelling should start before the loss of traction
would be a good substitute for the lack of g-forces.

The fisheye view from the***pit is IMO too much in GPL. It definetely adds to
the sense of speed but it also makes the car look bigger than it really is. I
think Geoff Crammond did this better in GP2. If GP2 had a letter box screen it
would have had a very good***pit view where you probably had seen parts of the
front wheels as well. Hopefully we'll see this in GP3 :o).

The AI in GPL, okay it's very good that they act natural, but if we never see
them why bother :o)? What I miss in GPL is an easy way of setting the strength
of the AI. Take Monza for example. There should be an easy way to make the AI
lap in the 1:35's as well as the 1:28's, so you can develop with the AI. Say you
start at 1:38's at Monza and drive at the back of the pack to learn the track. I
think the way to make the AI go slower should be done in the following way :o);
For slower AI make them brake earlier, drive slower through the turns and start
to accelerate later. This probably sounds obvious, but I've seen many racing
sims lowering the top speed of the AI and even if you're incredibly slow out of
corners you whosh past them on the straight. IMO, everybody can accelerate at,
or very close to otimal, but braking, cornering and the start of acceleration is
another matter.

It's very easy to go straight in a real racing car, it's not easy in racing
sims, unless you have some "reduce steering with speed" function. This is
missing in GPL, but working very well in GP2. Sure, after a lot of practice in
GPL you have no trouble going straight, but that's too unrealistic in my
opinion.

/Christer, entered the 1:29's at Monza this evening (retail version), slowly
getting there :o)
--
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

Well, I know what you mean about not too right.  Were not there yet.

I know what you mean, I have the same problem locking up the tires going
into the first Lesmo and Parabolica.  Unfortunately, 3D sound takes up CPU
cycles.  We do have more***pit motion than GPL.  Im experimenting with
different sounds for different portions of the tire slip range.

Ill have to take a look again at GP2; were having a bit of a problem with
the sense of speed ourselves.  I do like the letterbox thing though.

Im still working on how to slow down our AI cars.  I agree that just
limiting top speed doesnt work very well.  Itll probably end up having to
do with cornering look-ahead and monitoring of tire slip.

Speed-sensitive steering might help, but I think its really a dynamics
problem.  Things are just happening a lot faster (obviously), so in one pass
through the simulation loop a lot more ground is covered.  I still have
trouble running next to the grass in GPL without slipping off.  Im running
consistent mid 1:32s with an occasional dip into the 1:31s (I qualified on
the front row the other day but couldnt keep up once the race started).  We
re getting some TSWs soon so hopefully thatll help my lap times.  I
thought the lap record for Monza was in the 1:30s?  Sounds like youre
doing pretty good!

Todd

Hmmm, Laguna Seca and Sears Point, right?

Cheers,

Harald

Christer Andersson heeft geschreven in bericht

The

Interesting post. I had a long thought about this. How can you model
G-forces with sound? One can have a lot of tire squeal at low speeds without
a lot of G-forces and drive flatout through a fast bend without a tire
squeal. So how would you model this? IMHO it can only be done with a moving
***pit. And I think GPL is just right. Another (arcade)sim with a moving
***pit is TOCA and that one is totally unrealistic. The head-panning of CPR
another idea but I don't like this, so I hope Trans-Am will stick within GPL
boundaries! Another thing is that with TOCA I suffer from motion sickness
after some driving. Please not too much moving***pit! Btw, a tire doesn't
squeal before loss of traction.

I think you forget that in '67 the drivers had a lot more car in front of
their eyes. They were lying in the cars as opposed to the '90 where they are
sitting in the car. So, yeah, you have a much larger***pit area in front
of you.

Alison Hines made an AI-tweak. You can race in the middle of the action with
this!

You're 100% correct and I hope that the Trans-Am developers will have a good
at this subject!

These cars were just undrivable and IMHO this has nothing to do with the
"reduce steering with speed" option.

Cheers,

Harald

I believe that The Need For Speed SE
(original release) was the best example of
using sound to simulate the realism of losing
traction (I think they lost this feature in
successive releases). It would be a good
reference in my opinion. I'm really glad to
hear that you guys are still working on this
Todd. I've been anxiously anticipating the
release of this title, or at least a demo,
since I heard of it. I hope you don't focus
too much on moving***pits as I find this
approach a bit disorienting. Thanks for the
info, and good luck in your programming
efforts.

Later...

Tony Long

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~tonylong

<Snip>

/Christer

I've driven a lot in GP2, F1RS and some hours in N2, NFS2SE, ICR1, ICR2, and
only in N2 and GPL I get the feeling the***pit view is enlarging the car,
making it look like the car is taken up more road than it really is. I realize
that a fisheye view is needed in racing sims, but IMO it's exaggerated in N2 and
GPL.

I would prefer to chose the level in GPL, as you did in N2. I believe the
ini-files are to complicated for anyone to start fiddle with, just to set the AI
to a user prefered level.

/Christer
--
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

I had a very frustrating session racing against the AI today at Monza. I started
from 12:th grid position over and over again. The AI brakes later than me and
when ever I hear tyre squealling and are along side an AI, the AI brakes better,
sometimes I brake without any tyre squealling at all and then I'm at the same
braking power as the AI. This means I have to remember the angle of my foot to
brake correctly. I need a***pit to sit in where my feet are placed the same
every time I sit in it. Now I have a pedal unit standing on the floor, never the
same distance from the chair, never the same foot angle were the perfect braking
power is. Please, Todd, give us sound feedback when we're close to the optimum.
In other words give us Hollywood tyres :o).

I guess this is a big problem, since most sim racers almost demand the speed
sensation. I never thought about this during my 800 hours in GP2. I've driven
some Formula Ford for real at 200+ kph and believe me there's no speed sensation
:o).

Just dont make the fisheye view as large as the car will look much bigger than
it really is. IMO GP2 got it spot on. I never felt as if there were no room for
me inside another car entering a corner when there was in the replay. N2 had me
fooled big time in this department.

The record is 1:28.1 by Dave Mansell and it's a very smooth lap. I've just
listened to it and there are no tyre squealling when he brakes. Not on my
Soundblaster 16 anyway. Dave uses a Hyper Stimulator - http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-.

/Christer
--
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

Christer Andersson heeft geschreven in bericht

Really? I also spent a lot of time with GP2, it is a great sim, but never
ever got that feeling of the tire-squeal-sound..... I think it just comes
down to personal preferences, at least to me;-)

Ah, I understand now what you mean. Personal preferences again, I think.<g>
Tthat's perfectly OK with me. I think you are always comparing with GP2 (as
a standard). I don't, because I take Papy's sims as a standard. Personal
preferences again.

I also prefer the N2 way of level control. It's the best IMHO, and the fact
that there is already an AI tweak for GPL is prove that this was a wrong
decision by the GPL team. But I can live with it.

 >Noone would drive them if they were undrivable ;o).

Sorry. I didn't mean it this way. I used it in a figurative way (as opposed
to modern F1 cars). I thought you were blaming the lack of grip to the
absence of the reduce steering with speed option. Ah, never mind.......

Harald

Looking forward to the sim esp. as a one time owner of a '70 Mustang and a
'70 Camaro.  Heh-heh, that noise just sends shivers up my spine...

Best Regards, Rik.