rec.autos.simulators

by **savd..** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> > >If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track,
> > >one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a
> > >25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will
> > >be the fastest in a short time ?

> > >My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary
> > >shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is
> > >supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too
> > >fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics
> > >he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of
> > >course

> > All I can say is, bring him on!

> > I doubt a kid would be faster unless the *** was pretty inept. In
> > fact the most likely way the kid would be faster is because he is
> > lighter. Driver weight plays a huge part in go-karts, especially the
> > underpowered indoor thingies.

> > Cheers!
> > John (pretty succesful ex go-karter)

> I have to disagree John, while*** around in the local go-kart
> tracks a few years back (some of my friends used to drive), I was amazed
> at how quick some of these kids that came to the open/try out days for
> ppl without a license picked up the pace and drove away from most of the
> ***s that were there for the first time, I agree that the weight issue
> would be big factor though.

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy (not very succesful sometimes go-karter :-)
> UncleGoy on TEN

My first time go-karting (indoor low powered thingies) I was lapped by
one of the staff during the 10 minute race. I tried it again about 20
minutes later (after my thumbs had loosened up a bit) and lapped
everyone. The toughest part was not catching them but passing. I'm not
a small guy (6'0" 200lbs) and couldn't accelerate like the lightweights
could but I was cornering faster, taking the proper lines and not using
the brakes at all.
It doesn't matter how old you are or how much experience you have,
natural talent always comes through. And I don't mean me, I was just
better than the guys at the place at the time. IMHO they were really
bad. Anyway my point is that if you're good you're good regardless of
anything else. Only so much can be learned all the rest is genes.

Alan

by **John Walla** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>I have to disagree John, while*** around in the local go-kart
>tracks a few years back (some of my friends used to drive), I was amazed
>at how quick some of these kids that came to the open/try out days for
>ppl without a license picked up the pace and drove away from most of the
>***s that were there for the first time, I agree that the weight issue
>would be big factor though.

Weight is an enormous factor, especially with the smaller single
engine karts you get at most karting centres, but even with twins or
Prokarts.

I recently had a get together with a lot of the guys I used to race
with, and we all went along to the local kart track for a bit of a
bash. I'm the only one who has really raced karts and I won one of my
races simply from weight. One of my mates is, er, a bit heavy, and I
was fourth on the grid with him on pole. I knew he would be
reeeeeeeeeal slow away from the line, so when the lights went green I
went to the outside of the first corner and simply drove around all
the guys who were tucked in behind his (struggling) kart. By the time
they passed I was long gone.

You can see this every day in every form of racing, but in karts where
the power to weight ratio is so poor every ounce of weight saved is
vital.

Karting is a particular skill and somewhat different from other racing
disciplines. IMO not so much is done from "feel" and balance such as
you are exhibiting in other cars, but more from a knowledge of how
much abuse the kart will take, lightning reflexes and experience.
"Abuse" means how hard you can toss it into a turn and still hold onto
it, since this is the preferred cornering method for anything
non-hairpin and non-sweeper. Sweeps you basically take classically and
hairpins are set up firstly to avoid anyone passing you and secondly
to preserve as much speed as you possibly can (due to poor
acceleration). Lightning reflexes is a spin-off from the abuse - when
you step over the line and ask too much of the chassis you have chosen
for that track the fall from grace, or fall from grip, will be
extremely rapid - you need to anticipate this and dial-in the opposite
lock incredibly quickly. The little Bridgestones are pretty sticky and
will haul you out of most things when warmed up. Finally the
experience - simply where on the track is bumpy, where you need to
turn out of the corner to get a real flick and where there is a sudden
grippy patch that will *** you if you do try that. All these and
more are vital in karts. IMO the basic skills of driving a car and
driving a kart are the same, they just come in different measures and
different orders of priority - adjustment is all that's required.

In saying all that I've convinced myself that you may indeed have a
point about preconceived notions, but that's not a strength of all
"non-drivers" it's a weakness of some drivers.

Cheers!
John

by **Goy Larse** » Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Weight is an enormous factor, especially with the smaller single
> engine karts you get at most karting centres, but even with twins or
> Prokarts.

> I recently had a get together with a lot of the guys I used to race
> with, and we all went along to the local kart track for a bit of a
> bash. I'm the only one who has really raced karts and I won one of my
> races simply from weight. One of my mates is, er, a bit heavy, and I
> was fourth on the grid with him on pole. I knew he would be
> reeeeeeeeeal slow away from the line, so when the lights went green I
> went to the outside of the first corner and simply drove around all
> the guys who were tucked in behind his (struggling) kart. By the time
> they passed I was long gone.

> You can see this every day in every form of racing, but in karts where
> the power to weight ratio is so poor every ounce of weight saved is
> vital.

No disagreement here

- Show quoted text -

I`ll go along with that, but I`d say it`s much easier to go from kart to
cars than the other way round, and the exact same things apply when I
try out a new racing sim/game, I have expectations of how a car "should"
behave when I move the wheel etc, and when I do certain things in the
setup I want to "feel" that this sim reacts in much the same way as my
car reacts to setup changes, even more reason to be impressed of GPL I
guess, it gives me a "feel" for the car and reacts in a way that a car
should (given certain setups and stuff) wich made it fairly easy for me
to get below 1:10`s at least, although I`ll always be beaten by the guys
with "real" talent for this, I`m just not THAT good a driver.

Thx John, that last one was all I needed to end a crappy day, LOL

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
UncleGoy on TEN

by **Lutz Goerk** » Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> 1) I just do not get the sensation that I'm in control of the car -- it
> seems to be acquaplaning. This is a major problem with all Papyrus sims.
> I've been racing Indycar2 on and off for two years now and have never
> accquired a feel for driving it. Same goes for GPL, one really has to
> concentrate too *** the steering inputs. Furthermore, the braking
> inputs just do not seem to be right either just as in Indycar2/Nascar2.

> Papyrus should take a page out of Microprose's GP2 book on how to model
> steering and brake inputs.

Above isn`t about F1RS but that one has to concentrate too *** the
steeringinputs seems a major problem of many GP Sims.
EX-F1 Pilot Bertrand Gachot about F1RS while driving it with a steering
Wheel during a live-talkshow:

That`s more difficult than a real F1. Very good simulated but more difficult
to drive. (...)

I still like F1RS though.
IMHO Crammond is the only one who`s made the right balance between drive-
play- and steerabillity and acurate simulation.
It`s not that diffcult to drive a real F1 cars straight! (Bertrand Gachot
about F1RS)
GPL on the other hand is so difficult to drive cause the cars of this time
were so
unstable (with 410hp and no wings).
So they got it right for me.

Lutz
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Home: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Huw Morr** » Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Above isn`t about F1RS but that one has to concentrate too *** the
> steeringinputs seems a major problem of many GP Sims.
> EX-F1 Pilot Bertrand Gachot about F1RS while driving it with a steering
> Wheel during a live-talkshow:
> That`s more difficult than a real F1. Very good simulated but more difficult
> to drive. (...)
> I still like F1RS though.
> IMHO Crammond is the only one who`s made the right balance between drive-
> play- and steerabillity and acurate simulation.
> It`s not that diffcult to drive a real F1 cars straight! (Bertrand Gachot
> about F1RS)

I thought I was going mad! I disliked F1RS (at least partly) because I
couldn't believe the steering was accurate. I'm glad a real F1 driver
has confirmed this belief. Even if I was able to play F1RS with a
perfect frame rate, I'd still say GP2 is the better game and the better
simulation.

Having said that, there's a tremendous thrill in F1RS whenever you
take a corner well - it's just that it doesn't happen all that often.
At least in GP2 I can actally concentrate on the racing.

Huw

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by **Antony Hirs** » Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:00:00

I have gone mad playing CPR! I believe the car's handling is just
bananas. It is not the setup (I think) as I have downloaded 'fast'
setups to find them more uncontrollable and slower than mine. Could my
driving style be the poblem?

OTOH, FIRS is as I imagined an F1 car to be - easy and intuative. I
can't believe that Frank Williams - with all his millions - is going to
produce cars that are a handful to control.

ATB,

Tony.

by **Antoine Renau** » Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:29:51 +0100, Antony Hirst

>OTOH, FIRS is as I imagined an F1 car to be - easy and intuative. I
>can't believe that Frank Williams - with all his millions - is going to
>produce cars that are a handful to control.

On the other hand I've heard (about aircrafts though) that the more
unstability you put into it the more maneuverability you get, so it
doesn't seem to be as simple as you put it...

A. Renault

by **Robert Conno** » Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> > 1) I just do not get the sensation that I'm in control of the car -- it
> > seems to be acquaplaning. This is a major problem with all Papyrus sims.
> > I've been racing Indycar2 on and off for two years now and have never
> > accquired a feel for driving it.

Have to agree with this comment 100%....I got Cart II last Sunday and
while it felt decent on the ovals (Broke 2 track records first time
out!!) it felt like a pig at Laguna Seca....maybe this is how real Cart
cars are? We should probably ask someone who learned how to drive using
Cart sim first.....my first sim was gp2 and therefore I'm used to the
superresponsiveness that it provides.......cart to me is definitely
harder...maybe it's the turbo lag.

RC

by **Antony Hirs** » Thu, 23 Apr 1998 04:00:00

I think that you are refering to the F16 and others of that ilk. The
trouble is they need a computers to do the hard work or the pilot would
loose control and crash. F1 cars can't have these devices to make the
cars more controllable.

Tony.

by **Antoine Renau** » Thu, 23 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:28:28 +0100, Antony Hirst

>I think that you are refering to the F16 and others of that ilk. The
>trouble is they need a computers to do the hard work or the pilot would
>loose control and crash. F1 cars can't have these devices to make the
>cars more controllable.

Yeah I remember now we were talking about stealth aircrafts. You're
right about them needing a computer, I've read somewhere that if the
computers fail the plane has 99% chances of crashing... But as for F1
I think the same principle applies, but to a lesser extent
(obviously!).

A. Renault

by **David Mast** » Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:28:28 +0100, Antony Hirst

>>I think that you are refering to the F16 and others of that ilk. The
>>trouble is they need a computers to do the hard work or the pilot would
>>loose control and crash. F1 cars can't have these devices to make the
>>cars more controllable.

>Yeah I remember now we were talking about stealth aircrafts. You're
>right about them needing a computer, I've read somewhere that if the
>computers fail the plane has 99% chances of crashing... But as for F1
>I think the same principle applies, but to a lesser extent
>(obviously!).

I don't see why it would (or for that matter, wouldn't) apply to F1.
Extrapolating from one to the other without any knowledge of the physics is
pretty useless. FWIW, what's happening with the planes is that in normal
"stable" aircraft, the center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift. So
the wings give lift and simultaneously, a pitch down moment (force *
distance). To counter the pitch down, the tail is designed to give negative
lift and a pitch up. This is inefficient as the tail is pushing the plane
down. If you move the center of gravity further back, behind the center of
lift, you wind up with a pitch up moment from the wing's lift. To counter
this, you get positive lift out of the tail (a plus) with a countering pitch
down. But it turns out this is unstable. Yes, the computers react fast
enough in dynamic situations to keep it stable. Actually, there are
differences between static and dynamic stability. But that's getting into
more than I want to right now (ie, I really don't know all this stuff :-)).
So, in final, I have no idea how on can extrapolate from an F16 to an F1 car
on this subject...

by **Antoine Renau** » Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:00:00

What the... ?!!!

I never extrapolated F16 flight dynamics to F1 sims!!! I only stated
that since the most maneuverable airplanes show instability, it
*might* be possible that in order to increase the maneuverability of a
F1 car you have to introduce technology that doesn't aim to make the
car easier to drive. Now do you have first hand knowledge that would
disprove my *hypothesis*? If so I'd like to know about it so I won't
display my ignorance once again!

A. Renault

by **Martin Urs** » Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:00:00

: Yeah I remember now we were talking about stealth aircrafts. You're
: right about them needing a computer, I've read somewhere that if the
: computers fail the plane has 99% chances of crashing... But as for F1
: I think the same principle applies, but to a lesser extent
: (obviously!).

Computers controlling active suspension/ride height can make a poor
chassis design (not the same meaning as unstable, I know) appear to be a
good one. The Lotus 107 looked good in '92 and '93 but turned into a shitbox
in '94.
Of course, that season's overweight Mugen may have had something
to do with the poor performance as well...

Martin
Nigel Mansell RIP!

by **Lutz Goerk** » Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> > Above isn`t about F1RS but that one has to concentrate too *** the
> > steering inputs seems a major problem of many GP Sims.
> > EX-F1 Pilot Bertrand Gachot about F1RS while driving it with a steering
> > Wheel during a live-talkshow:

> > That`s more difficult than a real F1. Very good simulated but more difficult
> > to drive. (...)

> > I still like F1RS though.
> > IMHO Crammond is the only one who`s made the right balance between drive-
> > play- and steerabillity and acurate simulation.
> > It`s not that diffcult to drive a real F1 cars straight! (Bertrand Gachot
> > about F1RS)

> I thought I was going mad! I disliked F1RS (at least partly) because I
> couldn't believe the steering was accurate.

I prefer to drive F1RS from outside view, cause it`s not so difficult for me.
It seems that you are a little bit too deep inside the***pit in F1RS.
GP2 has the more realistic seating position of a driver.

I`m glad too - that`s why i still think GP2 is the better overall sim, too.

F1RS graphics are brilliant. Also the simulation of ( for example)
losing only one gear is great. As I said before - I still like F1RS.

I agree to this comment.

Lutz

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by **ja..** » Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:11:06 -0400, "David G Fisher"

>>>David G Fisher wrote
>>> The reason I mention these pro drivers is this. What we all talk

>I would definitely have been dead and buried MANY times. But I don't think
>fear of pain, injury, and loss of great amounts of money :-) is the main
>difference between driving a sim fast and driving a real car fast. I used to
>but then I remembered that when I've driven my motocross motorcycles, the
>early fear had quickly disappeared (probably due to plain old human
>ignorance). I would even say that I'd feel safer in an F1, Champ, or '67
>Lotus than I would on a motorcycle. At least you have a car body around you,
>a track that has some safety features, and a track that you have memorized.
>A lot of the fear goes away with some time. I have done 100mph on rugged
>terrain that I'd never seen before, with rocks and trees just feet away, and
>only a helmet to protect me in a crash. Not to mention the huge jumps and
>everything else that goes with motocross riding. People thought I was nuts
>but I felt quite in control. Sims just can't duplicate the skill
>requirements needed to do what I just described. Only actually riding the
>bike can you aquire the skills. Same with cars (I believe). Fear becomes a
>factor if your skills are not good. To be able to do lap times in a sim as
>fast as a pro driver is really stretching reality. As good as I was with a
>bike, pro drivers would destroy me in a race. If I only had a sim to
>practice with, you can guess the outcome.

Well I used to race both Motocross and Road Race motorcycles. And I
will admit to going over 100mph while Road Racing . I think you are
just going a bit to far saying you were running 100mph while racing on
a motocross tarck is a bit much!!! 65 to 75mph is the normal top speed
on a FAST Motocross track! Now racing like the Mint 400 or other cross
country races yes you do go over 100mph BUT 100mph in MotoX naaa it
just don't happen. If you were riding your motocross bike on some
power line roads or just out playing around yes that I can see but I
have yet to see 100mph motocross tracks. And one of the tracks near me
is one of the faster out door tracks. Red Bud in Buchanon Mich.

Jack

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