rec.autos.simulators

by **Byron Forbe** » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> I would definitely have been dead and buried MANY times. But I don't think
> fear of pain, injury, and loss of great amounts of money :-) is the main
> difference between driving a sim fast and driving a real car fast. I used to
> but then I remembered that when I've driven my motocross motorcycles, the
> early fear had quickly disappeared (probably due to plain old human
> ignorance). I would even say that I'd feel safer in an F1, Champ, or '67
> Lotus than I would on a motorcycle. At least you have a car body around you,
> a track that has some safety features, and a track that you have memorized.
> A lot of the fear goes away with some time. I have done 100mph on rugged
> terrain that I'd never seen before, with rocks and trees just feet away, and
> only a helmet to protect me in a crash. Not to mention the huge jumps and
> everything else that goes with motocross riding. People thought I was nuts
> but I felt quite in control. Sims just can't duplicate the skill
> requirements needed to do what I just described. Only actually riding the
> bike can you aquire the skills. Same with cars (I believe). Fear becomes a
> factor if your skills are not good. To be able to do lap times in a sim as
> fast as a pro driver is really stretching reality. As good as I was with a
> bike, pro drivers would destroy me in a race. If I only had a sim to
> practice with, you can guess the outcome.

No chance! Fear is definantly the defining point between sims and
real life! For eg, in real life a driver must slowly work his way up to
speed to find the limit - bit by bit - or risk life and car. In a sim
you can do as you please to find the limit and since you can go to and
over the limit no worries you will obviously get up to speed quicker.
After this, it's juat a matter of how well the simmer or real driver
knows the track and his car. When and if we ever get a sim that can
simulate racing perfectly the simmers will always be faster than the
real drivers simply because of the fear factor.

by **Byron Forbe** » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> >Your two seconds are being
> >lost through*** the tail out and losing rear traction, hence
> >slower acceleration.

> Actually I'm in the 1'08's. I've watched replays of others and they seem to
> slide quite a bit. Others in this thread agree and say it's realistic.
> That's what I want to know. Is it realistic?

Something else to keep in mind is that we are only hotlapping at this
time. When we begin to race we won't be pushing this hard and will also
have to look after the tyres. This alone should smooth things out
considerably. Also, we have no access to setup options yet and Papy have
stated that the physics model is NOT final yet.

by **Byron Forbe** » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Funny CPR steers about the same or better than GPL.
> But back
> when it came out you all said it was " unrealistic"
> Now Papy does a
> slippery/realistic sim and its " oh you cant drive"
> if you cant handle this?
> Ah the irony of it all.

I don't remember too many people saying CPR was "unrealistic". It was
just poorly finished and that was 99% of the complaining I saw. How
realistic it may have been was never appreciated by many because it was
so frustrating in so many areas people just gave up on it. So they
should have too. If a company cannot make the sim easy to get going they
should get out of the sim business! CPR was a disgrace and GPL is an
alpha demo. I know which I prefer. Can't wait for the full release
either!

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Well put it this way Dave. Who is more prepared to drive a real race
>car.

> 1/ Someone with extensive experience with the best sims?

> or

> 2/ Someone who has driven a street car at moderate, every day speeds?

If I own the car, neither of them are getting anywhere near it. :-)

How about this question? Who's better prepared to drive a race car. Someone
who has never driven a real car, only sims. Or someone who drives a car
normally? My answer would still be the same but I'd definitely lean to the
person who's drives a real car.

Dave

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

What were the avg. lap times? I know I read where the real drivers were able
to do 1'05"s. Was that qualifying or race times? So far the best hot lap is
1'07". If lap times slow down during the races, even with better setups, are
we at 1'10's? Is this what the real drivers race times were? I don't know.

Dave

by **John Walla** » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>Umm what about Spa also? When I tried it I could not remember all the
>corners on that huge track!

Spa is a bit like the Glen - one or two pretty tough corners, but an
awful lot of driving flat out - not too tough to learn after two or
three laps. It's _relatively_ straightforward to hotlap on, at least
as a sim. Now in real life, THAT would be a different story. One think
Spa does bring home is how utterly mental these guys must have been. I
cannot begin to imagine how many times I have "killed" myself there.

Cheers!
John

by **Goy Larse** » Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:00:00

snip

> It's not about having no clue, it's about never ACTUALLY driven an F1,
> Champ, or '67 Lotus. I didn't say GPL was too easy, just that it isn't much
> different from any other sim. And I "asked" if GPL was too slippery in my
> original post, not insisted. I'm sure Chris is an excellent sim driver, but
> how many hours has he put into GPL? I've had about 3 1/2 total and I'm down
> to a 1'08".55. Not bad I think. All the sims are basically the same, you get
> the feel, memorize, and anticipate. I'm sure I can find some children who
> can sit down and whip all of us in these sims. Have you ever seen how good
> some kids are with driving games? Unreal.

snip

Hi Dave

If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track,
one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a
25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will
be the fastest in a short time ?

My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary
shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is
supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too
fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics
he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of
course

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
UncleGoy on TEN

by **Doug Millike** » Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> On this thread about sims teaching us driving skills I totally agree.
> Before I started real road racing I drove Atari's Hard Driving coin-op
> simulation. Fortunately the car in the game drove allot like a front drive
> CRX-Si which is what I ended up racing in real life. It had the same lift
> throttle oversteer and the throttle on push. Before starting racing I had

But your CRX-Si didn't do donuts (under power) in 1st gear...(unless you
had the handbrake on). The numbers that we put in Hard Drivin' were pretty
close to describing the rear-drive "King of the Hill" Corvette with the
~400 hp Lotus-designed engine, but with more air drag to limit the
top speed.

We did make the HD / RD car more "stable" (in several ways) so that we
wouldn't scare off first-time players. I remember that I tried a
development version once with my best shot at some real race car
parameters, it was _extremely_ hard to drive. Remember that arcade games
are all about taking quarters -- looks like we were pretty successful in
your case!

BTW, you aren't the first person to learn to use a manual transmission with
this game -- that would have been some of the Atari employees that
wandered into the development lab about a year before 1st release...

Thanks for the comments!

-- Doug Milliken

by **Alan He** » Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>The more realistic sims
>get the more they will help us with driving cars in real life.

And the reverse is true too...
Since playing GPL I have found that I end up driving my road car
(Toyota Celica) like the cars in GPL - braking in a straight line, not
jumping on and off the gas, etc. At one stage last weekend my brother
had to tell me to change out of third gear because I was being
over-cautious! I would argue that driving GPL is a good advert for
road safety - it makes you acutely aware of how easy it is to stick a
powerful car in a hedge on a regular basis if you don't treat it with
respect!

Alan Head

===========================================
Grand Prix Legends Homepages
http://www.gp-legends.com
===========================================

by **Andrew MacPhers** » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Well, I don't have that problem... but I use the (gas) forklift at work
most nights and if I let my mind drift I find myself feathering the
throttle, dabbing gently at the brake, and choosing racing lines through
the warehouse. Generally behaviour not to be encouraged. This demo has a
lot to answer for! :-)

Andrew McP

by **John Walla** » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track,
>one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a
>25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will
>be the fastest in a short time ?

>My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary
>shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is
>supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too
>fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics
>he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of
>course

All I can say is, bring him on!

I doubt a kid would be faster unless the *** was pretty inept. In
fact the most likely way the kid would be faster is because he is
lighter. Driver weight plays a huge part in go-karts, especially the
underpowered indoor thingies.

Cheers!
John (pretty succesful ex go-karter)

by **Pat Dotso** » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> I see your point about
> being able to teach, but some people actually believe they could make the
> leap to real cars based on their sim skills. At least they talk like they
> can.

I guess I'm one of those people. I have no formal motorized racing
experience whatsoever. The only real racing I've done is BMX, but
I have had 3-wheelers, ridden motocross motorcycles on real motocross
tracks, and of course, driven normal cars on the street. Here is
my story :)

There is a place in Indianapolis called Stephan Johanssen's (sp?)
Karting Center. The have real, fast, racing karts that you can
drive on an indoor road-type course. Lap times are a little
over 20 seconds.

I've been there twice with a group of people who include: motocross
racers, flat track motorcycle racers, and policemen (who you would
assume to have more experience and training in driving cars than
most people). Both times, I've been the fastest person in the
group. I attribute this fact solely to the thousands of hours spent
with racing simulations in the past 6 years. The simulations have
taught me about proper racing lines. They also teach a person about
things like oversteer and understeer, and how to control it.

Right now, I'm trying to find a way to jump into real cars.
When it happens, I know for a fact that I'll be a better driver because
of my sim-racing experience. That doesn't mean that there won't be
a learning curve involved. It doesn't mean that I could hop in an F1
car and set records. It does mean that I'm more prepared to learn
than I would be without racing simulators.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> > Since playing GPL I have found that I end up
> > driving my road car (Toyota Celica) like the cars in GPL

> Well, I don't have that problem... but I use the (gas) forklift at work
> most nights and if I let my mind drift I find myself feathering the
> throttle, dabbing gently at the brake, and choosing racing lines through
> the warehouse. Generally behaviour not to be encouraged. This demo has a
> lot to answer for! :-)

Just watch those marshalls!

by **Jim Moor** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

As Pat knows, I also live in Indy. While I have little experience in
real cars, I have attended a couple driving schools and raced a Stefan's
karting center. My experience has been the same and can be attributed
directly to racing sims for the same reasons that Pat spells out.

As Pat says, he is not claiming that he is ready to outbrake Zanardi
into T1 at Surfer's because of ICR2 or GPL. However, the skills and
timing honed using these sims absolutely do transfer. The biggest
differences are the physical aspects. A SCCA spec racer or even a kart
requires a bit of physical stamina that one doesn't tap while sim
racing. One also must "use his butt" to feel what the car is doing. If
Trevor T. can implement this form of force-feedback, I'm buying. A jerky
wheel does little for me. But, that's a different thread.

If you are ever in Indy, check out the Stefan's karting center. It is
unlike others in the States. It's not a fun kart place. While your here
also consider checking out some sprints and/or midgets at Raceway Park,
Putnamville, Bloomington, Winchester or 16th Street. While the guys that
ran 60's grand prix cars had 16-pound "bowling balls," these guys have
at least 12-pounders. For Pat's family's sake I hope his jump into real
cars is not into one of these beasts.

When are we going racing, Pat?

Jim

> There is a place in Indianapolis called Stephan Johanssen's (sp?)
> Karting Center. The have real, fast, racing karts that you can
> drive on an indoor road-type course. Lap times are a little
> over 20 seconds.

> I've been there twice with a group of people who include: motocross
> racers, flat track motorcycle racers, and policemen (who you would
> assume to have more experience and training in driving cars than
> most people). Both times, I've been the fastest person in the
> group. I attribute this fact solely to the thousands of hours spent
> with racing simulations in the past 6 years. The simulations have
> taught me about proper racing lines. They also teach a person about
> things like oversteer and understeer, and how to control it.

> Right now, I'm trying to find a way to jump into real cars.
> When it happens, I know for a fact that I'll be a better driver because
> of my sim-racing experience. That doesn't mean that there won't be
> a learning curve involved. It doesn't mean that I could hop in an F1
> car and set records. It does mean that I'm more prepared to learn
> than I would be without racing simulators.

> --
> Pat Dotson
> IMPACT Motorsports

by **Goy Larse** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> >If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track,
> >one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a
> >25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will
> >be the fastest in a short time ?

> >My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary
> >shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is
> >supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too
> >fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics
> >he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of
> >course

> All I can say is, bring him on!

> I doubt a kid would be faster unless the *** was pretty inept. In
> fact the most likely way the kid would be faster is because he is
> lighter. Driver weight plays a huge part in go-karts, especially the
> underpowered indoor thingies.

> Cheers!
> John (pretty succesful ex go-karter)

I have to disagree John, while*** around in the local go-kart
tracks a few years back (some of my friends used to drive), I was amazed
at how quick some of these kids that came to the open/try out days for
ppl without a license picked up the pace and drove away from most of the
***s that were there for the first time, I agree that the weight issue
would be big factor though.

While I`m not the best of examples because I can`t get the hang of how
quick these things react to driver input (arcade :-), my brother didn`t
take long to kick my ***and at the time he was about 14 and I was 22
with a lot of (spirited :-) driving experience in fairly quick road cars
even back then, he`s a big guy so we weighed about the same too.

Although I`m sure I could get rid of this direct input (pun intended :-)
thing that prevents me from getting (reasonably) good at it, it
certainly would take me longer than someone without any preconceptions
as how something with 4 wheels is supposed to react to driver input, and
I don`t think it`s because I`m a bad driver, because on the open days at
our local race track I can take just about any car (that I can get my
sweaty hands on :-) and drive them fairly quickly and close to the
limits in a fairly short time

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy (not very succesful sometimes go-karter :-)
UncleGoy on TEN

rec.autos.simulators

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