rec.autos.simulators

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

Grant Reev

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by Grant Reev » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00


> >Greg would probably not care. It is so unthinkable for us to imagine
> >what he is experiencing, you are quite right, I wouldlike to see weather
> >too, but only if it could be done in a proper way.

> I'm sure they could do it in a proper way. Sounds to me like we are just
> getting excuses from Papyrus.

I think they are stating quite validly that todays computers are too
pathetic to try doing real rain modelling on. But then I'm a programmer,
have been since i was 11, over half my life, and I've spent a lot of
time dabbling in progrmaming my own simulation software, and when I
think of trying to simulate *realistic* rainy conditions myself, I
immediately know that it'll take a very powerful computer to model
the sheer complexity required. Even when i start thinking up tricks
and optimising tehcniques on how i might improve speed and performance
of the modelling i still realise that you'd need some at least at
the very top range of today's current machines at a guess but I
dare not assume that today's machines could really do it properly
until i'd actually sat down and spent a while trying to implement it
to see just how well it really performed.
You'd need to model the entire surface of the track to at least a
resolution of half a foot to be able to model the drier and wetter
patches of the track - Papyrus will be wanting the ability to drive
a drier race line into a wet track, having actual surface water and
rivers accross the track. I estimate the surface area of the Watkins
Glen track to be around 400,000 square feet, and we want four patches
of surface per suqare foot, so the computer will be having to scan
over 1,600,000 patches of track surface updating the current state of
the water level, evaporation, water flow, etc every clock tick of the
sim. As a car drivers through this surface the computer will have to
dynamically redistribute the water away from the patches the tyre
passed through in the form of spray which will then resettle slighlty
offline. Modelling all the spray from the track realistically would
not just be moving it directly from the patches the tyre crossed
onto the patches besides, but to actally lift the water into the air
and let it get blown in the disturbed air and see where it lands to
re-wet the track. this modelling will be really *** on cpu use too.
You already see the framerate hits GPL gets when a single car produces
a lot of smoke from a big tyre lockup, and you know that a race car
on a wet track produces a hell of a lot more spray than that amount of
smoke, and all cars on a wet track produce spray at every single
moment they are on wet track, not just at wheel lockups... i would
expect a framerate of maybe 1 or 2 fps at best. And the passage of
rain clouds would be modelled properly, how else do you get a patch
of rain pouring on one side of Spa Francorchamps but nice sunshine
on the other? imagine belting down a huge straight in Belgium and
seeing a huge bank of shitty dark clouds coming up and you slam
into a wall of rain from a solid downpour, at 300kph.... and of
course with the right wind that rain could get blown all the way over
the rest of the course too and leave nice sunshine over a wet-but-
drying track with steam rising. ok, getting *** here:) could you
imagine how cool it would be to race through a wet track in sunshine
with a lot of evaporation impairing your view down the track on long
straights?
etc.. etc... etc.... i could go on and on getting more detailed in
the process of just how i'd like to model rain and a wet track in
realistic detail.... and then reconsider thinking that Papyrus are
just being lazy rather than having a genuine reason for not
implementing realistic weather in this current generation of
computers. They could of course implement a cheap, unrealistic
weather that is exactly constant at any given moment over the whole
track, like in every other car sim i have ever seen that models
weather, but that cheapness would simply not match the realism
of the rest of the sim, so would be very badly out of place. it would
ruin the whole effect.

Grant.

Matthew Knutse

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by Matthew Knutse » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00


> >Yes, but you would not manage out of *fear*. That is the total
> >difference, if you used the same approach as you did in the sim, you
> >would have died & G T H plentyful, right?
> >Also, you would be surprised at how many earthlings actually can make
> a
> >race car go pretty fast around a track
> >after a bit of practice, coaching and a few over-the-limit episodes:)


> I would definitely have been dead and buried MANY times. But I don't
> think
> fear of pain, injury, and loss of great amounts of money  :-)   is the
> main
> difference between driving a sim fast and driving a real car fast. I
> used to
> but then I remembered that when I've driven my motocross motorcycles,
> the
> early fear had quickly disappeared (probably due to plain old human
> ignorance). I would even say that I'd feel safer in an F1, Champ, or
> '67
> Lotus than I would on a motorcycle. At least you have a car body
> around you,
> a track that has some safety features, and a track that you have
> memorized.

I know, I've tried a few enduro-bikes, and those pro guys are aliens to
me!:))At least you have the chance to jump off, In a '67 GP car you
would be mangled and
wrapped up in aluminium sheet, get your head chopped off, and finally
burn to ashes
because the "K-mart shopping bag" fuel cell "erupted". :-D
Todays cars are a far cry better, though!

- Show quoted text -

Agree, but in the sim, I sort of do the best I can within a given amount
of laps/time,then look at my best lap. If I see it is 2 secs off the
pace, I try to find where I lose it,
just like the real thing.
I go out again, and try to improve those spots, but in the sim, I can
take chances. I mash the
car up against the earthbanks 4-5 times before I find a new braking
point etc.
In real life I stretch it till I get a "whoaaaa!!" or spin situation
(depending on the
nature of the piece of track).
If I can't beat them in real life, I just blame the car, tires etc,
while in the sim
I keep on crushing my poor Lotus/Reynard/Chevy/Honda 'till my eyes are
red and (hopefully)
I set a new best lap:))

(about the weather), David says:

May be, but why? Why would they not want to include it? I'd love to see
it, I enjoy riving in the rain!

- Show quoted text -

Right diffuse..sorry. I think I was trying to comment on the grip
levels. Too much coffee.IMO, they aren't too bad, it feels like maybe
there's too much air in the tyres. Also, the 1967 Lotus
was the first car to use the Ford DF-engine (way past 400 HP), and as I
have understood it, it had
a very sudden power delivery. It also feels like the diff is maybe set a
tad too tight.
But, of course, it's IMO:) It might be changed for the release, and I'll
make up my mind when I get down to a 1.07, and see how I am driving to
get such a time:))) IF!

Well, If could just avoid all the **`**** time in the workshop!!!:))))

Cheers,
Matt

--

Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)

"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
       -Cale Yarborough

John Walla

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by John Walla » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:57:42 -0400, "David G Fisher"


>There are other sims which have sold well and are fun and you've ripped
>them.

Well, then you get into a definition of "fun" and that would be
pointless. I take it you're referring to CPR, which was for me
anything but fun. If others enjoyed it then I'm truly happy for them
and wish I could have.

If GPL were perfectly realistic I'm sure we could drive it - after
all, there are schools in France where you can drive a fully fledged
F1 car just by showing up. What we couldn't do is run remotely
competitively, and that is where sims have to be fun as well as
creating the suspension of disbelief.

Weather is entirely another issue. Believe it or not I really agree
with you, and had GPL been released with good weather I think it would
have added to it immensely. OTOH I truly respect not only the
abilities of the Papyrus people but also their thinking, and I
honestly believe that had they been able to do weather to any
reasonable level they would have done so. The fact that they couldn't
include weather doesn't thrill me but I have to respect that they know
what was and wasn't possible. Personally I feel that GPL offers more
than enough that the omission of weather doesn't spoil the experience,
but there is only so long that such a thing can be left. If the demand
is there it will be attended to.

Indeed. He had his long period of reigning supreme though, which is
more than can be said for his "equals".

About 10 laps in the demo, but then I've been driving GPL for quite
some time. Remember too that Watkins Glen is a pretty easy track and
you're driving a pre-alpha. Tracks like Mexico and Zandvoort offer
ample scope for making a total spectacle of yourself, and are very
satisfying to drive.

Cheers!
John

John Walla

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by John Walla » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:35:44 -0400, "David G Fisher"


>Well, good to hear that no one was hurt. My mother did the same thing when a
>car pulled out in front of her on a slick road. Being in the back, I was
>bounced left and right a few times like a pinball. I see your point about
>being able to teach, but some people actually believe they could make the
>leap to real cars based on their sim skills. At least they talk like they
>can.

I have my reservations about that! In my opinion GPL shows how little
has been modelled in sims until now, but even GPL can't prepare you
for a real car. The mere fact that you can hurt yourself really brings
things into focus.

Cheers!
John

John Walla

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by John Walla » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:13:56 -0400, "David G Fisher"


>Actually I'm in the 1'08's. I've watched replays of others and they seem to
>slide quite a bit. Others in this thread agree and say it's realistic.
>That's what I want to know. Is it realistic?

Did you ever have a chance to see Irvine and Schumacher driving their
Ferrari F1 cars around the streets during the 50th birthday
celebrations of Ferrari? HUGE amounts of drifting, oversteer, flicks
and slides. Any rear drive racecar can be setup and driven like that,
and the 60's F1 cars were more prone to actually be raced like that
due to the differing grip characteristics.

What I have noticed when driving GPL is that while it is immensely
satisfying to toss the car around like a maniac, it is _smooth_
control that brings the really fast laptimes, not the lurid slides.
Even at tracks where slides are necessary, it is a form of controlled
aggression that is required if that is understandable? Throwing the
car around shaves tenths every time.

A good driver is a good driver, but GPL really rewards people like
Doug Arnao who are exceptionally smooth. Whenever I arrive at a track
I can match Doug's laptime, but when we start to push he gets smooth
and I get crazy, with the result being a significant gap between us.
I'm working on "smooth" at the moment!

MTM2 is real nice, but it is still basically MTM with flashier
graphics. That isn't meant to knock it since I'm sure it will be just
as much fun as MTM and look a hell of a lot nicer, but with a plethora
of 3D boards on the market and MS' buying power I reckon it's easier
to make nice graphics than to develop a truly realistic physics
engine. Indeed that is the one thing I think Papy need to work on -
the presentation. Graphics and sound could both be more "WOW", and
that should be something to work on I think.

Cheers!
John

John

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by John » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Umm what about Spa also? When I tried it I could not remember all the
corners on that huge track!

John

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by John » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On this thread about sims teaching us driving skills I totally agree.
Before I started real road racing I drove Atari's Hard Driving coin-op
simulation. Fortunately the car in the game drove allot like a front drive
CRX-Si which is what I ended up racing in real life. It had the same lift
throttle oversteer and the throttle on push. Before starting racing I had
never driven a car hard before, I had never driven a manual transmission
car, I had never got a car sideways before, the only thing I had done was
hours and hours on Atari's hard driving. When I started racing cars in real
life I was very fast. There was of course the ramp up period where I needed
to get confident in the car (wrecking in real life is not fun <g>). My first
year I set a lap record at Sears Point and won the championship. Many a time
I got sideways in turn 10 (very fast right hander) and saved it by instinct
reactions of the wheel and throttle. I'm positive that allot of the things I
learned in Hard Driving helped me in real racing. The more realistic sims
get the more they will help us with driving cars in real life.

Thanks
John O'Keefe

David G Fishe

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by David G Fishe » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00


>MTM2 is real nice, but it is still basically MTM with flashier
>graphics. That isn't meant to knock it since I'm sure it will be just
>as much fun as MTM and look a hell of a lot nicer, but with a plethora
>of 3D boards on the market and MS' buying power I reckon it's easier
>to make nice graphics than to develop a truly realistic physics
>engine. Indeed that is the one thing I think Papy need to work on -
>the presentation. Graphics and sound could both be more "WOW", and
>that should be something to work on I think.

>Cheers!
>John

I think you will be very surprised by the physics engine. Obviously the
physics engine won't be set up to be totally "realistic" due to the nature
of
this game, but what you will see is something special that, along with all
the other elements present, could be used to make a great pure sim. It's one
of the main reasons why I'm e***d about it. This is a completely new piece
of software. Ubi Soft took it's arcade game POD engine and made F1RS.

Dave

George Buhr I

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by George Buhr I » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

I beg to differ, I think you could drive an f1 or indycar or nascar by
driving a good quality sim.  They allow you to learn the tracks, learn basic
setup procedures, and race with cars in close competition, without the ill
effects of reality when you make a mistake.  Although I realize that the
learning curve is much shorter, I think it is because of the fear factor
more than anything.  Who is scared to do a four wheel drift in a Lotus at
Watkins Glen on the sim?  Hell I'll try it, and pretty soon I won't crash
into the wall.  But put me out there on the real thing, and I might just
take a few laps nice and easy before I push it.  My point is, it is
unrealistic to think that the sims aren't or don't need to be accurate.  The
real race car drivers like myself appreciate the sims.  Personally, I like
them because they keep my reflexes sharp during the off season and times
when I can't be in the real thing.  By the way, I don't think weather is
that big of a deal, unless it is implemented properly.  CPR did not do it
properly, and games like GP2 didn't do it at all, which I prefer unless they
can get it right.


>>I'm not sure if you're trying to be controversial by labelling GPL a
>>"game", and this has been done to death here already. Whatever your
>>reason, it's pointless to look at GPL as being "too easy". Okay, you,
>>I and 99% of other sim fans could never hope to do a 1:10 in a
>>Lotus-49, but what would be the point of releasing a product that
>>served only to reveal the shortcomings of the people using it? It
>>wouldn't exactly be a top seller now would it? Simulate as much as you
>>can, sure, but it also needs to serve the basic function of being
>>possible for mere mortals to drive and being fun - a GP car designer
>>doesn't give a hoot about that, just make it as fast as possible. A
>>_real_ sim that you could complete about one lap in a hundred wouldn't
>>be too popular I think.

>There are other sims which have sold well and are fun and you've ripped
>them.
>You have to read the entire thread. I'm not, and could care less about,
>being controversial. I LIKE GPL and I never said GPL was too easy. I was
>responding to postings, and Papyrus, saying that GPL was so real, that
>weather wasn't a feature that could be done well enough to be in the sim
>right now. My main point was, believe it or not, that GPL, and other sims
>are not so real that a feature like weather needs to be left out. You seem
>to be saying in the above paragraph that GPL is not too close to realism,
>because if it was, you, me, and everyone else would not be able to complete
>a lap (which is exactly my view). But then you also state in this and other
>postings that GPL is SO realistic that weather can't be included without
>dragging the sim to a lower level. What?

>>>My learning curve with GPL was
>>>actually quicker than CPR. F1 was the easiest of all. In CPR, even though
>I
>>>can hang in with all but the very best drivers (Sandman is one I
>can't/never
>>>will beat), I still would not say that I have mastered the sim even after
>5
>>>1/2 months. Second, a group of people work on these sims for months and
>>>months and then someone just calls it trash, because it, or parts of it
>are
>>>not real enough for them. NONE of these sims are real. If anyone thinks
>they
>>>can drive a real F1, CART, or 67 Lotus based on what they do in a sim
then
>>>they have real dillusions of grandeur. I get a laugh at some of the
>postings
>>>I read here.

>>Wow, and now you're giving everyone else a chance to get a laugh at
>>your posting? Thanks! :-) To paraphrase Orwell, none of these sims are
>>real, but some are more real than others. GPL is Napoleon - I'll leave
>>you to work out who CPR represents.

>Didn't Napolean ultimately fail.

>>As for learning curve - people are doing 1:07s and you're 3 seconds
>>behind. Looks like you're a fair way short of mastering GPL.

>I said I did sub 1'10's. By that I meant my times were below 1'10" but
above
>the best times in the 1'07"s. Actually I'm at 1'08".55. At most, I've spent
>about 3 1/2 hours behind the wheel. Actually, I doubt I've spent that much
>time driving (replays are fun to watch)  :-).  How long did it take you to
>get to a 1'08'?

>Dave

ymenar

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by ymenar » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

John wrote :

<sniped 'lot of info>

I agree with you. I remember last summer, when I went up to the
Mont-Tremblant circuit for an invitation race there.  I had the possibility
to race there with a Volvo 850turbo.  I just had my license not long ago.

I was very lucky to actually get the ride (I'm a friend of a Volvo detailing
owner), and he was skeptical on my racing capabilities.

I did pretty well for a starter, and actually my racing skills I developed
for now 9years (when I first bought Indy:500) were all why I was
competitive.  First of all I already know the circuit, how the car could
react, how to tweak up a setup so it could accommodate my driving style, the
rules of racing, etc...

But most of all, I already known where was the limits of the car, how it
reacted, how I feel the sense of speed, and the limit that I couldn't pass
over (resulting in a crash).

The more we go, the more realistic the simulators will be (it's a natural
evolution). Oh, I also did some ice-driving with my friends on many
fake-tracks we made up, and I was always the best, because I know what was
the car limits, and I had the natural driver reflexes, all this because of
the simulators.

GPL is just jumping 1 step higher of the long road where reality and
simulation will collapse some day

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

David G Fishe

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by David G Fishe » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00

I understand what you are saying, but you don't seem to be carrying it
NEARLY as far as some others have. Initially, a long time ago, somewhere at
the beginning of this thread, which was an offshoot of another thread,  :-)
someone made some statements about a sim being so incredibally realistic
that it didn't deserve any criticism. I felt they went a little too far, and
said that if they thought they could jump into an F1, Champ, or  '67 Lotus
and match the times of a pro driver based on what they do in a sim, they
were really kidding themselves. The day someone can actually do that, then
you have a great sim. Otherwise, people should lighten up with their
criticisms and also their counter attacks here on r.a.s.

Certainly you can learn something from sims, but for me to think I can hang
with Blundell because I did a 50 sec lap at LB on my sim is like thinking I
can be a pro quarterback because I can throw a football 70 yards and the
pass hits my friend right on the hands. Even if I do that 50 times in a row
it doesn't mean a thing.  I said somewhere in this thread, I think, that I
have had motocross motorcycles and there isn't a sim that has even sniffed
at re-creating that experience and won't. You mention the fear factor, as
did someone else, but for me, that is only an issue in the beginning. I have
done things on a motorcycle that people thought were suicidal but once I got
comfortable with my skills, the fear factor quickly vanished. I HAD to
experience the real thing. Even then, there's still a huge gap between me
and the best riders. I said that I had hit 100mph on off road terrain that I
had never seen before, with trees and boulders, drop offs, debris all
around, huge jumps, and only a helmet for protection. I'd probably have less
to fear in an F1 race. The fear factor would be an issue but my failure
would be based more on a lack of real experience behind the wheel and also a
lack of natural talent that the top athletes possess in any sport. A
motorcycle sim can never prepare me to do what I can now on a bike. A car
sim can never prepare me to beat Schumacher. The most they can do is give
you a glimpse of what it's like and in combination you have to do a little
fantasizing. So like I said at the beginning, people here at r.a.s. need to
lighten up a little and not go overboard in their discussions of sims. The
GPL war that is going on right now is a good example of people taking this
stuff way too far.

Dave

Byron Forbe

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00


> Your still not listening ! They do not help you know
> what to expect and the imputs are far from being grounded in reality. To
> repeat the last poster" no comparison between sim racing and real racing."
> Sims are games for fun period.

> .

   This is complete rubbish. After spending many hours with ICR2 and
it's excellent job of recreating body roll, I feel the same things when
driving on the street and feel far better at driving thru corners on the
road than my pre ICR2 days. Your comment is just utter nonsense. What
sims have you used anyway? NFSII????? Mario Karts?????
Byron Forbe

GPL Demo - More Criticisms

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00


> Well, good to hear that no one was hurt. My mother did the same thing when a
> car pulled out in front of her on a slick road. Being in the back, I was
> bounced left and right a few times like a pinball. I see your point about
> being able to teach, but some people actually believe they could make the
> leap to real cars based on their sim skills. At least they talk like they
> can.

> Dave

   Well put it this way Dave. Who is more prepared to drive a real race
car.

   1/ Someone with extensive experience with the best sims?

                or

   2/ Someone who has driven a street car at moderate, every day speeds?


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