rec.autos.simulators

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

JP

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by JP » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:24:20


http://www.racesimcentral.net/
rd_high_end_equipment/

  Lol, more deceit, eh Don ?

Mike Beaucham

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Mike Beaucham » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:45:02

Exactly..
The more immersive the better, and I do think FF helps with that.
Definately. That's why I hate the boutique wheels that don't even have FF
and are purely marketed towards "hotlappers" who dont' even use FF for the
most part anyways.

The boutique wheel companies have the right idea, but they're obviously
going about it in a hugely capitalistic way and taking advantage of a lot of
people.

Don't get me wrong, I give full credit to these people that make these
wheels, they truly are bulletproof wheels... something I definately wouldnt'
be able to make.

Mike
http://mikebeauchamp.com



> > Ahh, overpriced boutique wheels that don't even have force feedback.
Sure
> > it's easier to hold a line while going over bumps when the wheel doesn't
> > move on you. Isnt' as fun, but anything to shave that extra .1 right..

> There's a certain percentage of sim racers that think "I'm slower when
> using FF, so FF must suck".  Which I find to be a very poor conclusion.
>   Introducing FF into a sim should not make an individual quicker, but
> it should make the experience more realistic.  Lap times and realism do
> not necessarily go hand in hand.  I'm not saying that current FF
> technology is accurate, but I do believe that it's closer to the real
> thing than racing without.

SS

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by SS » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:12:31


Hey -- another CH joystick user!  I've been using my CH Products stick
happily for 5 years now (after breaking at least a half dozen sticks built
by other companies in the year prior to that purchase).  I've always used a
joystick for GPL and other driving sims/games simply out of habit (it's the
only type of controller I already owned when I bought my first driving
title).  I've finally purchased a wheel and pedals, but I'm so accustomed to
years of driving with the joystick that I still can't come close to my
joystick times with the wheel.

itazura

John Simmon

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by John Simmon » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:39:57



So you agree then. ALL of the plastic analog wheels have calibration
problems. That's what I was using.

I never once said that it calibrated any better than any wheel other
than the one I was using before.

But the bad wheel/decent wheel line is different for everyone.  For me,
bad wheel is what I was using, and decent wheel is ECCI.  I'm not really
concerned with where anyone else's lne is at the moment.

I never claimed that I was fast, but I will proclaim that I'm much more
consistent (warping notwithstanding), and therefore a better driver
overall because my equipment is better.

I hate that game, so the reference was wasted.

I was just mentioning the fact. For what it's worth, I still ride the
roof on road courses because current video card technology doesn't
provide the depth of field I needto do roadies in the ccockpit.

Well, now there you're just flat out wrong. I won the first race I
joined with the ECCI at the beginning of May (onine, daytona, everyone
finished on the lead lap and the pack of 12 cars never once thinned
out), and I've won two league races (one was cup with fixed setup, the
other was aero88 with open setup) since the middle of June. The amount
of racing I do has not noticeably increased except for trying to tune a
decent setup for running in the aero league, so your assumption that I'm
racing more doesn't hold up.

I think someone else said it. It's a mental thing - after spending $1200
(shipped), I better damn well get better at it the hobby.

BTW, my dad is a complete noob where racing is concerned, and even HE
turns better laps with the ECCI than he does with  his plastic
fantastic.

Michael Grand

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Michael Grand » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:45:59

What you say is very true, the best wheel in the world won't make you better
if you don't devote the time to practice.


> A big point that is being missed is that typically anyone that buys high
end
> equipment be it for sim racing or anything else is probably dedicating
> themselves more to their hobby than the casual person with more off the
> shelf components.  If your going to spend over $1000 for a wheel I'd
suspect
> you have plans to make a lot of use of it.  Because of this these same
> people are probably also putting a lot more time into practice and setups
> than the others.  This IMHO is what makes them better.  The better
hardware
> will help for sure as it is nicer to use and stands up over time better,
but
> it is not going to make a poor racer and great one.   In the end its
> ability,practice, and dedication that makes one better, not how much
you've
> spent, especially if it collects dust most of the time.



> > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a
> joystick, he beat people
> > with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels.

> > _____

> > Steve

> > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights,
> do they work?"


> > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> > > ----
> > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap
wheel
> > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do
> is
> > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> > > ----

Michael Grand

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Michael Grand » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:50:58

I started out on Nascar Racing with a joypad. I paid $3 for it at Comp USA.
I was very competative with it. It was the only pad I could find that was
smooth enough to race with. I forget what it was called, but they
discontinued it. I pieced them together for about 6 mos until I decided I
couldn't deal with it any longer. I bought a Thrustmaster GP, I think it was
called and I was worse than with the joypad. I went right to an ECCI CDS2
and right away I started getting faster and better at all the tracks. I've
owned many others over the years and with the right amount of practice you
can win with any of them, but the ECCI has always been the smoothest.


> What a bunch of BS.. I remember (way back when) running in an GPL F2
> League when a guy I only recall as "Jake" SMOKED us on a regular basis
> using a JOYSTICK!! I especially like the way it compares gamers to
> real drivers at the end of the ad for ECCI, Thomas, and Ball.., like
> one has anything to do with the other... sorry there article author,
> but if you think it does go hop in a car at Bondurant's. Talent is
> talent. Thinking you "know the right lines to take" from steering a
> picture on a computer screen won't do squat for you in a 2000 lb car..
> except possibly make you humble.

> G Patricks



>http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_ste...

ard_high_end_equipment/

- Show quoted text -

Michael Grand

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Michael Grand » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:54:01

Then I'll say it for you. The Pots in the ECCI are military grade and hold
up better and longer than most others.

Schoone

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Schoone » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:11:33

"So you agree then. ALL of the plastic analog wheels have calibration
problems. That's what I was using. "

Sigh, well to each his own John.  I'm not trying to argue with you.  I have
had no issues at all with my Red Logitech Momo wheel calibrating.  I guess I
just got lucky with my plastic junk.  Granted I have totally rebuilt the
pedals to make them more solid and reliable as that was a weak point with
then over time.

Again I don't doubt the ECCI wheel is very nice, but again my point is that
the high end wheels is not going to make any driver great, that takes
practice and consistency, and good working reliable hardware, no matter the
cost.

Good luck with your wheel and your racing.  Sounds like a great setup for
sure.




> > "simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would
> > call well built to begin with.  Calibration was a almost a joke.  With "

> > Well yes if any wheel has calibration issues and is not well built its
going
> > to be a problem.  Kinda like saying I had an old 1960s VW bug and I
bought a
> > new Ferrari and I was faster.

> So you agree then. ALL of the plastic analog wheels have calibration
> problems. That's what I was using.

> > There is no way that the ECCI calibrates better than any other well made
> > wheel, be it cheap or expensive.  Pots are pots.

> I never once said that it calibrated any better than any wheel other
> than the one I was using before.

> > Some wheels are just built
> > like junk and wear out.  Again I'm sure the ECCI is a nice setup and
worth
> > the money but any decent wheel would have been an improvement.

> But the bad wheel/decent wheel line is different for everyone.  For me,
> bad wheel is what I was using, and decent wheel is ECCI.  I'm not really
> concerned with where anyone else's lne is at the moment.

> > The point is
> > that using a $1000 is not all it takes to become a fast driver.  I'm
sure
> > there are lots of high end wheels being used by some very poor drivers.

> I never claimed that I was fast, but I will proclaim that I'm much more
> consistent (warping notwithstanding), and therefore a better driver
> overall because my equipment is better.

> > Much like the most expensive golf clubs don't make you better.

> I hate that game, so the reference was wasted.

> > "Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or driving aids,
my
> > driving has improved."
> > Well as to this "adding difficulty" that is a item for another
discussion,
> > as I have seen these issues argued both ways so I don't see it being a
big
> > advantage or disadvantage.

> I was just mentioning the fact. For what it's worth, I still ride the
> roof on road courses because current video card technology doesn't
> provide the depth of field I needto do roadies in the ccockpit.

> > I'd be willing to bet it is due to having a better wheel and in turn
putting
> > more time into racing than it is just a matter of an ECCI wheel making
you
> > faster all on its own.

> Well, now there you're just flat out wrong. I won the first race I
> joined with the ECCI at the beginning of May (onine, daytona, everyone
> finished on the lead lap and the pack of 12 cars never once thinned
> out), and I've won two league races (one was cup with fixed setup, the
> other was aero88 with open setup) since the middle of June. The amount
> of racing I do has not noticeably increased except for trying to tune a
> decent setup for running in the aero league, so your assumption that I'm
> racing more doesn't hold up.

> > In the end if it makes you faster and makes you enjoy racing more that
is
> > all that matters :-)  Hobbies are suppose to cost money.

> I think someone else said it. It's a mental thing - after spending $1200
> (shipped), I better damn well get better at it the hobby.

> BTW, my dad is a complete noob where racing is concerned, and even HE
> turns better laps with the ECCI than he does with  his plastic
> fantastic.

Jo

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Jo » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:52:02

I have a TSW 2 Stock , Got for $125.00 and I thought that it was a
great deal . I have used Red Moms and Thrustmasters over the years and
thought that the TSW would help me to go much faster in Nascar Racing
2003 .. WRONG ! The TSW is not any faster than any of the wheels I
have had . It is built better and has very good brake and gas peddles
. But in truth the best wheel I have found for speed and accuracy is
the Thrustmaster Pro Digital 2 . I use the TSW peddles and the
thrustmaster together . As for the momo I loved it , But its silly
angle kills my back . Force Feedback helps with car setup . I'm very
happy that I did not but the TSW new . I would have been very bummed
to find out that they are not really any better than a Thrustcrapper
or a Microsoft wheel . As for ECCI , I would love to try one , But
there aint know way im gunna spend that kinda money before I try it .
David Butter

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by David Butter » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:20:16


Not that I'm any sort of serious racer, but I do agree with some of
the other people here in that I drive GPL for fun, and I don't really
care if they're not totally realistic. How many of us are likely to
drive a real 1967 F1 car, after all? And I know the article doesn't
actually say this, but if I have to spend a thousand quid just to be
vaguely competitive, then that's not my idea of fun.

I've never been a great driver and never will. Besides, hotlapping
might be fun but... I was very happy to get slightly negative on
GPLRank, but even happier to win the occasional race at Spa simply by
not smashing into everyone else on the first lap.

And finally, the ol' Michael Schumacher analogy. He won races and
championships with equipment that wasn't the best, through sheer
driving ability, but now he does have the best car as well he's close
to unstoppable. Most people (not all, but most) find the first
achievement the more interesting.

--
Above address *is* valid.

Support the world's oldest motorsport venue!
http://www.shelsley-walsh.co.uk/future.html

simps

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by simps » Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:23:09

"even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel will probably lose when up
against a high-quality rig."

What else would you expect the seller of high-end expensive equipment
to say??

Schoone

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Schoone » Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:02:08

I adjusted the angle of mine by mounting an wooden wedge under the front of
the wheel.  it is attached directly so still easy to move out of the way if
needed.


<MM>

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by <MM> » Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:51:18

Me too Schooner.......

I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the angle to
something more realistic.  Much better IMHO  :)

<T-Dog>
==--==


> I adjusted the angle of mine by mounting an wooden wedge under the front
of
> the wheel.  it is attached directly so still easy to move out of the way
if
> needed.



> > I have a TSW 2 Stock , Got for $125.00 and I thought that it was a
> > great deal . I have used Red Moms and Thrustmasters over the years and
> > thought that the TSW would help me to go much faster in Nascar Racing
> > 2003 .. WRONG ! The TSW is not any faster than any of the wheels I
> > have had . It is built better and has very good brake and gas peddles
> > . But in truth the best wheel I have found for speed and accuracy is
> > the Thrustmaster Pro Digital 2 . I use the TSW peddles and the
> > thrustmaster together . As for the momo I loved it , But its silly
> > angle kills my back . Force Feedback helps with car setup . I'm very
> > happy that I did not but the TSW new . I would have been very bummed
> > to find out that they are not really any better than a Thrustcrapper
> > or a Microsoft wheel . As for ECCI , I would love to try one , But
> > there aint know way im gunna spend that kinda money before I try it .

Schoone

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Schoone » Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:59:25

Yes it makes a big difference.  Some minor tweaks like this to change the
angle of your wheel, pedals, seat can go a long way in improving your
racing.  It all comes down to being comfortable and in the right position.
I also find it important to have everything in the exact same position and
distances each time in the case where your not in a fixed frame setup.
Racing at a desk with a chair on wheels and pedals just sitting flat on the
floor is not ideal for racing no matter what wheel and pedals you have :-)


> Me too Schooner.......

> I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the angle
to
> something more realistic.  Much better IMHO  :)

> <T-Dog>
> ==--==



> > I adjusted the angle of mine by mounting an wooden wedge under the front
> of
> > the wheel.  it is attached directly so still easy to move out of the way
> if
> > needed.



> > > I have a TSW 2 Stock , Got for $125.00 and I thought that it was a
> > > great deal . I have used Red Moms and Thrustmasters over the years and
> > > thought that the TSW would help me to go much faster in Nascar Racing
> > > 2003 .. WRONG ! The TSW is not any faster than any of the wheels I
> > > have had . It is built better and has very good brake and gas peddles
> > > . But in truth the best wheel I have found for speed and accuracy is
> > > the Thrustmaster Pro Digital 2 . I use the TSW peddles and the
> > > thrustmaster together . As for the momo I loved it , But its silly
> > > angle kills my back . Force Feedback helps with car setup . I'm very
> > > happy that I did not but the TSW new . I would have been very bummed
> > > to find out that they are not really any better than a Thrustcrapper
> > > or a Microsoft wheel . As for ECCI , I would love to try one , But
> > > there aint know way im gunna spend that kinda money before I try it .

ymenar

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by ymenar » Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:02:38


>wrote

<snip bad-journalism>

What about flattening the sides of your car during qualifying?  Why didn't
you talk about that, it made you famous.  Don't say after all these years
you were joking.  Nice try.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...


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