rec.autos.simulators

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Don Wilsh

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Don Wilsh » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:13:43

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

If you gonna race, check out this article.

DW

Schoone

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Schoone » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:49:14

Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

----
According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is
slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
----

The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected.  It basically claims
that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.  I
know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a
joystick.  The article should have just explained the variety involved, not
try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the bets
hardware to even win.


http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_ste...

magnulu

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by magnulu » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:56:29

  It's interesting so many *** racing gamers eschew force feedback.
Maybe they are more interested in winning than having fun.

I wouldn't want to actually play without force feedback.  When it's
implemented well, it really draws me into the game- a regular wheel just
seems dead to me.  Of course, I rarely play online (when I do, it's usually
a rally game or Dirt Track Racing 2).   When force feedback isn't
implemented well- when it's cheesy vibration (like Rallisport Challenge),
it's almost always a game killer.

  I've had a Logitech MOMO for almost 2 years (the USB version that uses the
gear motor), and it's been fairly sturdy, too- and I never noticed any
accuracy problems.  At 100 dollars, I don't consider it cheap (for me), I
pitty console gamers with their PS2 Logitech wheels.  It costs the same, but
is nothing but a regular Logitech Force Feedback wheel (that's what I use on
my PS2), plus a few buttons.  The feel is cheap- you can play with it but it
doesn't feel as good to hold, and the pedals suck.  Still, it does help make
Gran Turismo 3 bearable (it's darn near unwinnable without it).

  I really would like to try a force feedback wheel one of these days that
has a belt motor in it, to see how it's different.

Edgecrushe

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Edgecrushe » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:06:44

So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a joystick, he beat people
with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels.

_____

Steve

"If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, do they work?"


> Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> ----
> According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is
> slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> ----

John Simmon

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by John Simmon » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:09:07



Why didn't you tell them that pancaking the right side against the wall
would make you faster because the car prvides an aerodynamically
improved head-on profile?  Wouldn't that be better than spending
hundreds of dollars on a new wheel?

John Simmon

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by John Simmon » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:19:12



I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this
year.  My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best.  I bought an
ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I
didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving
aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started
driving in the***pit again.  The only thing that's changed is my
wheel/pedals.

I thing having better equipment is a factor, and anyone that says
different is pretty close to being clueless.  I have never used
forcefeedback, so I can't really comment about how realistic it is (or
is not).

Schoone

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Schoone » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:29:22

John, can't make much sense of your post.  You say you got a new wheel and
pedals, stopped using aids, started using***pit view and started winning.
Then next sentence you say the ONLY thing that changed was the new wheel and
pedals.

I'm not doubting that a good wheel will help over a sloppy, poor one but
there are a lot of other factors involved as well.  Things as minor is the
seating angle, angel if the wheel and pedals etc can have a big a factor as
the hardware itself IMHO.  I've lowered my seat for example a half an inch
and find things much more comfortable and thus easier to race.

There are many cheap wheels that are junk, and many that are good, same as
for expensive wheels but in the end a $1000+ wheel isn't what wins races.
You can call people clueless if you like for believing otherwise.




> > Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> > ----
> > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do
is
> > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> > ----

> > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected.  It basically
claims
> > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.
I
> > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using
a
> > joystick.  The article should have just explained the variety involved,
not
> > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the
bets
> > hardware to even win.

> I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this
> year.  My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best.  I bought an
> ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I
> didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving
> aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started
> driving in the***pit again.  The only thing that's changed is my
> wheel/pedals.

> I thing having better equipment is a factor, and anyone that says
> different is pretty close to being clueless.  I have never used
> forcefeedback, so I can't really comment about how realistic it is (or
> is not).

Dan Leac

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Dan Leac » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:30:33

I have to agree. A fast driver with ***equipment will ALWAYS beat a
standard driver with a 1000 dollar rig.

Schoone

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Schoone » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:46:28

A big point that is being missed is that typically anyone that buys high end
equipment be it for sim racing or anything else is probably dedicating
themselves more to their hobby than the casual person with more off the
shelf components.  If your going to spend over $1000 for a wheel I'd suspect
you have plans to make a lot of use of it.  Because of this these same
people are probably also putting a lot more time into practice and setups
than the others.  This IMHO is what makes them better.  The better hardware
will help for sure as it is nicer to use and stands up over time better, but
it is not going to make a poor racer and great one.   In the end its
ability,practice, and dedication that makes one better, not how much you've
spent, especially if it collects dust most of the time.


joystick, he beat people

> with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels.

> _____

> Steve

> "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights,
do they work?"


> > Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> > ----
> > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do
is
> > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> > ----

Ken MacKa

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Ken MacKa » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:59:29

There's a point were the equipment is going to be a limiting factor. A very
cheap wheel that gives poor steering accuracy and has lousy pedals, to the point
that it's hard to modulate them, is going to affect lap times, even in a skilled
drivers hands. However there are some decent consumer grade "plastic" wheels
that do have good steering accuracy and adequate pedals. Going from adequate
midrange wheels to a high end wheel might feel better but it's not going to
dramatically improve laptimes and certainly it's not going to instantly teach a
poor driver good driving technique.  The article gives the impression that there
is no middle ground and you must have the most expensive gear to win. And even
more outrageous, it suggests that expensive gear will make a lousy driver a winner.

Ken


> I have to agree. A fast driver with ***equipment will ALWAYS beat a
> standard driver with a 1000 dollar rig.

>>Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

>>----
>>According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
>>Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
>>will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is
>>slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
>>----

>>The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected.  It basically

> claims

>>that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.

> I

>>know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a
>>joystick.  The article should have just explained the variety involved,

> not

>>try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the

> bets

>>hardware to even win.

Icer

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Icer » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:25:44

What a bunch of BS.. I remember (way back when) running in an GPL F2
League when a guy I only recall as "Jake" SMOKED us on a regular basis
using a JOYSTICK!! I especially like the way it compares gamers to
real drivers at the end of the ad for ECCI, Thomas, and Ball.., like
one has anything to do with the other... sorry there article author,
but if you think it does go hop in a car at Bondurant's. Talent is
talent. Thinking you "know the right lines to take" from steering a
picture on a computer screen won't do squat for you in a 2000 lb car..
except possibly make you humble.

G Patricks


>http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_ste...

>If you gonna race, check out this article.

>DW

Icer

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Icer » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:31:20

I agree that someone driving with a POS thats spiking, out of
calibration, has bad POTs, etc. with do better with ANYTHING that
sends a good signal, but that doesn't mean that you need a 1000 +/-
wheel to get a clean signal out. Trust me, there are guys out there
playing with joysticks that can beat the pants off you...

Sign me "clueless".. lol




>> Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

>> ----
>> According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
>> Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
>> will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is
>> slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
>> ----

>> The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected.  It basically claims
>> that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.  I
>> know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a
>> joystick.  The article should have just explained the variety involved, not
>> try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the bets
>> hardware to even win.

>I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this
>year.  My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best.  I bought an
>ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I
>didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving
>aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started
>driving in the***pit again.  The only thing that's changed is my
>wheel/pedals.

>I thing having better equipment is a factor, and anyone that says
>different is pretty close to being clueless.  I have never used
>forcefeedback, so I can't really comment about how realistic it is (or
>is not).

Plowboy

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by Plowboy » Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:26:23

Some of you all would *** if they were going to hang ya with a new rope...

> What a bunch of BS.. I remember (way back when) running in an GPL F2
> League when a guy I only recall as "Jake" SMOKED us on a regular basis
>SNIP

MadDAW

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by MadDAW » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:06:16


joystick, he beat people

Just imagine how bad he could have smoked them witha wheel and pedals setup.
:)

MadDAWG

MadDAW

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

by MadDAW » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:20:27

Hardware can play a huge part, but I don't think cost is what makes or
brakes the results. Its more of a comfort level.

Using myself for example. I started running N2 with the old standby T2
wheel.  After years of use it finaly gave out and I moved up to a Logitech
Wingman FF (which I usally ran without the FF turned on).  This was also
around the time N4 came out.  After the LWFF took a dive I replaced it with
a red MOMO. I have basicly sucked in the group of friends I race with ever
since.  I blamed this on the higher level of physics in N4, NR2002 and
NR2003 and myself not being able to get a handle on them.  When Microsoft
stopped making their Sidewinder wheel I saw it for $40 at CompUSA so I
picked one up for my second computer that I put together for when friends
come over.  After trying it the Momo is now the backup, and I'm doing much
better. Like John I even feel comfortable enough to run in***pit view
again. So while my $40 wheel does debunk the theory that high dollar setups
make you better, it does prove (to me anyway) that hardware does play a huge
part in how well a person can do.

While I have no doubt that some people can kick tail with a joystick or even
a keyboard a quality piece of equippment has never hurt no one.  If a person
is in this for the long haul spending the bucks on a TSW or other high end
model can be worth t just for the wear out factor.  With what I have spent
on the two Logitechs, and the Microsoft wheel I could have bought a TSW and
I'm sure it would still be going strong.

MadDAWG


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