rec.autos.simulators

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:21:21

He's in the "Press", it's his job to make something out of nothing.

Mitch

> Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> ----
> According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is
> slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> ----

> The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically
claims
> that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.
I
> know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a
> joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved,
not
> try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the
bets
> hardware to even win.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

- Show quoted text -

by **Pete** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:06:54

When I used to race GPL on my AMD K6-2 300, with very mediocre graphics
and performance, with a joystick it was just a matter of toning down the
settings in order to get a better frame rate. Now that I have an AMD
2500+ with a reasonable graphics engine and plenty of RAM, plus a decent
Thrustmaster Ferrari wheel, and can run GPL at a pretty high end
settings, yet I can't get close to my abilities with that joystick.

Admittedly I don't race anywhere near as much as I used to and this has
a major influence on my abilities, but this isn't the first time I've
heard this needing a high-end rig being spouted about when it comes to
beating the opposition. I saw an AMD rep. saying exactly the same when
talking about games with 64-bit processing.

Surely it's just another means to influence people into paying out for
upgrades, etc.

> _____

> Steve

> "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, do they work?"

> > Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> > ----
> > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is
> > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> > ----

--
Pete Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before sending me an email

by **Schoone** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:40:18

"Hardware can play a huge part, but I don't think cost is what makes or
brakes the results. Its more of a comfort level."

Agreed. Its comfort and familiarity with your complete setup. Racing is
about practice and consistency.
I'm not arguing that good hardware is worth the price in most cases, I just
didn't care for the way the article and some of the quotes of the "elite"
seemed to imply that expensive hardware is what made the difference and was
the only way to win.

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:49:14

Funny, I dont recall Brian Grauss being very fast a few years back. Maybe
his new wheel did help :-)

Mitch

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_ste...

by **Tiny Lun** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:00:45

Perhaps we should arrange a test of wheel vs. joystick? I would be
interested in the result. I used a CH Flightstick Pro for Cart,Nascar,ICR2
and had very competitive times. Went to a wheel with GPL and never looked
back

> Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> ----
> According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is
> slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> ----

> The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically
claims
> that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.
I
> know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a
> joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved,
not
> try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the
bets
> hardware to even win.

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_ste...

- Show quoted text -

by **Schoone** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:19:53

I don't argue that a wheel is better. I use a wheel and wouldn't consider a
joystick. Again the point I was making is how the article seems to imply
you need to spend $1000 to be competitive.

Do people actually believe statements such as "even a skilled racer with a
cheap wheel will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig"?

If by cheap they mean junk and with poor calibration and sloppy then yes,
but some of the cheaper wheels such as the MS Sidewinder (never used one
myself) stand up well competitively.

I have nothing against the high end wheels, they are great but its how the
article presents them is all. I feel it may keep many from joining the
sport if they find out they need a high end wheel to even have a chance
against the "elite" drivers.

> Perhaps we should arrange a test of wheel vs. joystick? I would be
> interested in the result. I used a CH Flightstick Pro for Cart,Nascar,ICR2
> and had very competitive times. Went to a wheel with GPL and never looked
> back

> > Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> > ----
> > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do
is
> > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> > ----

> > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically
> claims
> > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.
> I
> > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using
a
> > joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved,
> not
> > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the
> bets
> > hardware to even win.

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_ste...

- Show quoted text -

by **Mike Beaucham** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:55:35

Ahh, overpriced boutique wheels that don't even have force feedback. Sure
it's easier to hold a line while going over bumps when the wheel doesn't
move on you. Isnt' as fun, but anything to shave that extra .1 right..

I can understand the fact that they at least use better quality
potentiometers, but even the most expensive military spec pot I've bought
has been under $20.

Mike
http://mikebeauchamp.com

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_ste...

by **Dean Purd** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:13:56

Hey guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a joystick wielding
Wolfgang Woeger that smoked everyone's ass when GPL first came out?

--
See ya in the pits,
Dean

I have a terrible memory. In fact my memory's so bad I can't remember how
long it's been since I've forgotten anything.

joystick, he beat people

> with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels.

> _____

> Steve

> "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights,
do they work?"

> > Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> > ----
> > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel
> > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do
is
> > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> > ----

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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by **Don Wilsh** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:50:17

Good point Schooner..
dw

> A big point that is being missed is that typically anyone that buys high
end
> equipment be it for sim racing or anything else is probably dedicating
> themselves more to their hobby than the casual person with more off the
> shelf components. If your going to spend over $1000 for a wheel I'd
suspect
> you have plans to make a lot of use of it. Because of this these same
> people are probably also putting a lot more time into practice and setups
> than the others. This IMHO is what makes them better. The better
hardware
> will help for sure as it is nicer to use and stands up over time better,
but
> it is not going to make a poor racer and great one. In the end its
> ability,practice, and dedication that makes one better, not how much
you've
> spent, especially if it collects dust most of the time.

> > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a
> joystick, he beat people
> > with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels.

> > _____

> > Steve

> > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights,
> do they work?"

> > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS....

> > > ----
> > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers
> > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap
wheel
> > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do
> is
> > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said
> > > ----

by **Pete** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:28:57

Yeah, he smoked 'most' people's ass, though I believe he used a
combination of joystick to steer and pedals for acceleration and
braking.

He wasn't the only joystick racer, though. I'm sure there were others.
I was one such GPL, joystick racer who managed to get to -52 in GPLrank
a couple of years back, but desperately wanted to migrate over to using
a wheel and pedals for the immersion factor. I ain't as good with the
wheel, but enjoy it just as much. :)
--
Pete Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before sending me an email

by **John Simmon** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:29:19

I'll go slower. Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or
driving aids, my driving has improved. These are two things I could not
do with the TM simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would
call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With
the ECCI, calibrations are rock solid and the wheel is smooth as glass.

The ECCI enabled me to drive better because the wheel is better.

by **Edgecrushe** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:34:28

He won a BRD wheel so we will be able to see how he compares with a decent wheel in the upcoming season.

At the moment he says he is slower with a wheel but Im sure it will change.

_____

Steve

"If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, do they work?"

> Perhaps we should arrange a test of wheel vs. joystick? I would be
> interested in the result. I used a CH Flightstick Pro for Cart,Nascar,ICR2
> and had very competitive times. Went to a wheel with GPL and never looked
> back

by **John Simmon** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:34:29

I certainly wouldn't call myself an "elite" driver. I simply had more
disposable income at the time, so I spent it on something the majority
of the sim-racing public wouldn't even consider.

Sure, I could bought one of the plastic wheels again, but when you can
afford top-of-the-line stuff, you buy it. It's the American way.

BTW, ECCI currently has a 5-6 week backlog of orders.

by **Schoone** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:45:13

"simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would
call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With "

Well yes if any wheel has calibration issues and is not well built its going
to be a problem. Kinda like saying I had an old 1960s VW bug and I bought a
new Ferrari and I was faster.
There is no way that the ECCI calibrates better than any other well made
wheel, be it cheap or expensive. Pots are pots. Some wheels are just built
like junk and wear out. Again I'm sure the ECCI is a nice setup and worth
the money but any decent wheel would have been an improvement. The point is
that using a $1000 is not all it takes to become a fast driver. I'm sure
there are lots of high end wheels being used by some very poor drivers.
Much like the most expensive golf clubs don't make you better.

"Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or driving aids, my
driving has improved."
Well as to this "adding difficulty" that is a item for another discussion,
as I have seen these issues argued both ways so I don't see it being a big
advantage or disadvantage.

I'd be willing to bet it is due to having a better wheel and in turn putting
more time into racing than it is just a matter of an ECCI wheel making you
faster all on its own.

In the end if it makes you faster and makes you enjoy racing more that is
all that matters :-) Hobbies are suppose to cost money.

> > John, can't make much sense of your post. You say you got a new wheel
and
> > pedals, stopped using aids, started using***pit view and started
winning.
> > Then next sentence you say the ONLY thing that changed was the new wheel
and
> > pedals.

> > I'm not doubting that a good wheel will help over a sloppy, poor one but
> > there are a lot of other factors involved as well. Things as minor is
the
> > seating angle, angel if the wheel and pedals etc can have a big a factor
as
> > the hardware itself IMHO. I've lowered my seat for example a half an
inch
> > and find things much more comfortable and thus easier to race.

> > There are many cheap wheels that are junk, and many that are good, same
as
> > for expensive wheels but in the end a $1000+ wheel isn't what wins
races.
> > You can call people clueless if you like for believing otherwise.

> I'll go slower. Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or
> driving aids, my driving has improved. These are two things I could not
> do with the TM simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would
> call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With
> the ECCI, calibrations are rock solid and the wheel is smooth as glass.

> The ECCI enabled me to drive better because the wheel is better.

by **Internet Use** » Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:08:42

> Ahh, overpriced boutique wheels that don't even have force feedback. Sure
> it's easier to hold a line while going over bumps when the wheel doesn't
> move on you. Isnt' as fun, but anything to shave that extra .1 right..

There's a certain percentage of sim racers that think "I'm slower when
using FF, so FF must suck". Which I find to be a very poor conclusion.
Introducing FF into a sim should not make an individual quicker, but
it should make the experience more realistic. Lap times and realism do
not necessarily go hand in hand. I'm not saying that current FF
technology is accurate, but I do believe that it's closer to the real
thing than racing without.

rec.autos.simulators

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment